The Evil Lunacy of Calvinism.
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03-03-2012, 08:31 PM
RE: The Evil Lunacy of Calvinism.
(03-03-2012 06:24 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(03-03-2012 06:06 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  There seem to be many factors at interplay; hereditory issues, peer pressure, psychological issues, environmental factors, one's culture, social conditioning, awareness, religion etc.

If there is some type of moral creator I think it would facilitate a learning process based on experience leading to betterment, not coercion leading to confusion.

Isn't it amazing that every person on here would do a better job at being God than the one KC thinks he believes in? Unless someone was wanting to be an ass, not one of us would create confusion among our minions. Coercion, maybe, at least Hamata K would use that. Big Grin

But if we wanted our people to live healthy, sane lives, would any true God leave everything so ambiguous? Not if we truly loved our creation.

I pointed this before. I can be a much better or a much worse god than this incompetent. I don't know what he's doing but he sucks at it. A perfect plan involves perfect results with minimal resources and record time. For an all-powerful being (full immediate results, zero effort) there is no better plan than wishing the results into existence. Everything else makes the plan less than perfect. In that case, what the fuck is this shit we live in?

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

I would never shake a baby unless the recipe requires it.
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10-03-2012, 11:51 PM
RE: The Evil Lunacy of Calvinism.
I have found the perfect Atheist Anthem to be sung at our monthly clubhouse meetings:




It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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11-03-2012, 04:31 AM
 
RE: The Evil Lunacy of Calvinism.
To me the Calvinist idea has a fatal flaw: It also diminishes the power of God.

With the Calvanistic mode of thinking, God must behave according to the principles of omniscience and omnipotence, and has no power to lay either down, and in the case of humans, he would have to do this to gain a true loving relationship with us, and presumably that's what He wants.

I once said to God that in my heaven, when I have creative powers, I will make people that I can trust completely. He said to me, "No you won't. You could, but you won't. Trust me."

I realize my personal communication from God may not matter much to you, but the fact is if God wants people to love Him, they have to be free to accept or reject him, and that requires that after creating a human being, God lays down his omniscience. And if he can't do that; he's not all-powerful. It would seem that God's omnipotence requires that he be able to create a stone so big He can't lift it.

When He creates the line within His substance that forms you and me, He also creates a situation that He cannot know the outcome of and that He has not preordained to occur in a certain way. He actually has to build a kind of chaotic random chance generator into our being. And this is not so unusual. The other night, my wife and I couldn't decide which of two videos to watch. I put them both behind my back and began to shuffle them back and forth, and within seconds I didn't know which one was in which hand. If I can do it, God can do it.

Plants and animals, Calvinism. Human beings, free will.
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11-03-2012, 06:05 PM
RE: The Evil Lunacy of Calvinism.
(11-03-2012 04:31 AM)Egor Wrote:  To me the Calvinist idea has a fatal flaw: It also diminishes the power of God.

With the Calvanistic mode of thinking, God must behave according to the principles of omniscience and omnipotence, and has no power to lay either down, and in the case of humans, he would have to do this to gain a true loving relationship with us, and presumably that's what He wants.

Here's the deal, though, Egor. With this line of thinking, you create a circular logic that can infinitely go either way.

God is so omnipotent He can lie down His omnipotence to make Him no longer omnipotent but because of that He is omnipotent. Also, if He diminishes His power, how much is diminished before He's not considered God? Can God really be subjugated to freewill?

Can God deny His omnipotence and omniscience by giving it up? Does this make Him not omnipotence and omniscient if He doesn't give them up?

Well... I go back to what it says in 2 Timothy 2:13 -
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Because of what it says here (and I think it's pretty clear), God cannot deny what He is: omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent.

But, then the argument comes along that He's not omnipotent if He can't act outside His omnipotence. As stated before, this cannot be. It's impossible to act outside of His omnipotence because if He did, He would no longer be omnipotence; and, since if He isn't omnipotent in that instance, then He was never omnipotent. Perfection cannot choose imperfection; if it does, then it was never perfect to begin with.

The whole concept of God acting outside His omnipotence is a paradoxical fallacy. It simply cannot happen.

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12-03-2012, 01:09 AM
 
RE: The Evil Lunacy of Calvinism.
You have too many "cannot's" attached to your definition of God. As soon as you say God cannot do something, you are forming God into an image of your understanding and not necessarily reality.

To avoid this, I'd like to narrow the topic down a bit and ask: Is it possible for God to create a free will being? And by free will, I mean the created being can choose to orient himself toward God or to orient himself away from God.

I will stipulate a few things right up front. There are a few things God cannot do (e.g., he cannot make two things be the same thing). Also, humans only have free will in a few limited ways in this phase of existence, this "existential dimension" if you will.

If you want to use scriptual reference, that's fine for describing why you believe it to be true, but for it to have authority with we me as well, then it has to come from the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

My position is that God can make a freewill agent, but the process requires God to limit his omniscience and providence in that particular case. My counterpoint to the opposite is that if there is no free choice for humans, God may exist, but is irrelevant to human existence.
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12-03-2012, 06:58 PM
So, Egor and KC, just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
Really, your discussions devolve to that level of content. There is no evidence of God.
Neither of you has any; no one does. All your talk is just your delusion vs. delusion.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-03-2012, 11:22 PM
 
RE: So, Egor and KC, just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
(12-03-2012 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Really, your discussions devolve to that level of content. There is no evidence of God.
Neither of you has any; no one does. All your talk is just your delusion vs. delusion.

So, if you have nothing intelligent to add, stay out of the conversation.
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13-03-2012, 05:38 AM
RE: So, Egor and KC, just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
(12-03-2012 11:22 PM)Egor Wrote:  So, if you have nothing intelligent to add, stay out of the conversation.

Irony, much.....?
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13-03-2012, 10:02 AM
RE: So, Egor and KC, just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
(13-03-2012 05:38 AM)Sol Wrote:  
(12-03-2012 11:22 PM)Egor Wrote:  So, if you have nothing intelligent to add, stay out of the conversation.

Irony, much.....?

^I LOL'd at the office and now everyone is watching me. Oh well, not the first time Tongue
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13-03-2012, 03:00 PM
RE: So, Egor and KC, just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
(13-03-2012 10:02 AM)JaL3 Wrote:  
(13-03-2012 05:38 AM)Sol Wrote:  
(12-03-2012 11:22 PM)Egor Wrote:  So, if you have nothing intelligent to add, stay out of the conversation.

Irony, much.....?

^I LOL'd at the office and now everyone is watching me. Oh well, not the first time Tongue

Welcome, JaL3. Glad we could get you to creep out your office.

The suspense in waiting for the arrival of Chas' Hitch-slap is killing me!
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It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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