The Evisceration of the Exodus
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03-08-2015, 06:26 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(02-08-2015 04:57 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Thoughts? Opinions?

That's easy to explain. The eleventh plague wiped all evidence of these events from the earth, because reasons. It was powerful enough to wipe all mention of itself from the Pentateuch, as well.
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03-08-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(03-08-2015 06:26 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 04:57 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Thoughts? Opinions?

That's easy to explain. The eleventh plague wiped all evidence of these events from the earth, because reasons. It was powerful enough to wipe all mention of itself from the Pentateuch, as well.

The eleventh plague is ongoing and consists of a plague of humourless bastards with beards and strong opinions about women.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-08-2015, 08:20 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(03-08-2015 03:03 AM)morondog Wrote:  How about, let's accept that the numbers were greatly exaggerated by scribes, is there anything at all to suggest that the Hebrews were ever in Egypt? IIRC the Hyksos were a pastoral nation who were recorded (by the Egyptians) as having given the Egyptians a hard time back in the day? Where would the exodus myth have come from? Is there any reason to think it might have had even a grain of truth in it?

I mean, let's leave the God out of it. Let's say a smallish tribe had settled in Egypt and the Egyptians got the hell in with them and kicked them out into the desert. Now there's already a buncha guys hanging out e.g. in Canaan, so these fuckers aren't gonna have an easy time of it, so they spend the next few generations kicking about in the desert, and finally get lucky militarily and have a land grab. Then the legend of how they were chosen springs up... Sounds possible?

That has always been my personal gut feeling on it, as it is logical knowing how people love to tell and embellish stories. Just yet another major story of the bible which is a parable, or a GREATLY exaggerated story. Funny thing is this is huge for those of jewish faith....and yet it....is.....fiction at worse, hugely exaggerated at best.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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03-08-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(03-08-2015 03:11 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 04:57 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  All,

So I am on vacation for a week, the wife is out of town for three weeks, and I have all of my assigned college work done, sooooooo since I am nursing an injured shoulder, no gym time for me Weeping but the good news is I had time to finally break out my books and do a long promised tear-down of the Exodus myth. I posted it in my resource library, but since people can't reply there, and I would like to know your opinion, I made a post for discussion, support, or criticism....

The Evisceration of the Exodus

“The Exodus from Egypt is unknown to history save what is written in the Hebrew Bible. Outside of the most meager a circumstantial evidence we possess nothing to substantiate the text.”

-Dr. Michael D. Oblath. The Exodus Itinerary Sites (2004)

Michael D. Oblath received his Ph.D. in Near Eastern Religions from the University of California and the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley. Currently, he is Adjunct Professor at the Pacific School of Religion in Berkeley, California, and St. Mary’s College of California. His publications include articles on the patriarchal narratives and the Exodus from Egypt.
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This is just one of a copious number of scholarly experts who have spent years studying and investigating the Exodus. I will endeavor to eviscerate the myth of the Exodus. To recap the fairytale; 600,000 Jewish slaves, their families, Egyptian booty, and a plethora of animals numbering between two and three million spent 40 years stomping around the Sinai desert which is only about 130 miles across, fleeing to the promised land, guided by God who tested them greatly.

Nonbiblical references

The earliest reference to the Exodus story can be found in the writings of the Greek historian Hecataeus of Abdera (fourth century BCE). It is surmised that he had a copy of the Pentateuch before him, based upon what appears to be a direct quote from Deuteronomy. Of course, there exists no contemporary literary record of any sort depicting the Exodus as a historical event, and this silence was maintained for many centuries, until the story started circulating after the Jewish Scriptures began to emerge publicly in the latter half of the first millennium BCE.

Logistic Implausibility

Exodus 1:5 - and all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were 70 souls…

Exodus 12:37 - and the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about 600,000 on foot that were men, beside children.

Exodus 12:38 - and a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even a very much cattle.

Exodus 12:39 - and they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither have they prepared for themselves any victual.

First is the amazing explosion of the Israelite population; they went from 70 to more than 1 million in about 400 years (Ex 12:37, 38:26, Num 1:45-46). They must have been very bad at mathematics back then. It is reminiscent of the great mythical global flood(2348 BCE) which posited that eight humans repopulated the earth in 350 years(2000 BCE) to 27 million people. The sheer impossibility of there even being 600,000 male descendants of Jacob during four generations of Hebrew existence in Egypt(Gen 46) should give a thinking person pause. Most calculations show that the most that could have been produced in four generations would be approximately 7000 males.

However, let’s wave the wand of magical belief, and pretend that there was 2 to 3 million Hebrews in the time since Jacob entered Egypt. Let’s break down the logistics of moving that many people… About 2000 people can fit comfortably into a mile, with no belongings and a little space between them. If 3 million people were lined up single file, the length of the column would require an estimated 1500 miles. In order to fit into the 130 mile broad Sinai, the Israelites would need to line up more than ten abreast, without belongings such as wagons and animals. The front row of the column would have been safely in the promised land and the last row would have still been in Egypt.

Animals and treasure

Let us not forget the hundreds of thousands of animals they must’ve had with them. How were these animals fed, and what plant matter did they eat? When you calculate the amount of lambs needed to fulfill the Passover decree at Exodus 12:21 would be something around the number of 240,000, slaughtered in one night. If these are only the lambs, how many other animals were there, including all the adult sheep, cattle, goats and horses, all spared miraculously during the plagues?

Exodus 3:22 and 12:35 state that the Israelites are to flee through the desert with the enormous wealth of Egypt, taking a massive amount of silver and gold. Why carry all this immense weight of worthless treasure into the desert for 40 years where it has no value? This ridiculous story would’ve left Egypt bankrupt and destitute, and the Israelites extremely wealthy. Oddly, this fairytale is not supported by the historical and archaeological record. Archaeologists have found zero evidence of such wealth among the hill settlers that became the Israelites.

Geography and archaeology

Sadly archeologists cannot find any clues to support the story of the Exodus as an actual historic event. They cannot identify Mount Sinai and many other place-names in the story; nor were there any remains from this found anywhere in the Sinai. An Exodus of such great size would’ve left a plethora of evidence as I will get into later.

The burning/talking bush

Surprisingly, this great universe and life creating deity deemed to speak to Moses through a burning bush. It is even more amusing that(Exodus 3:5) the great and powerful Oz was more concerned about Moses wearing shoes to walk on the patch of dirt in front of him: “do not come near, put off your shoes from your feet, for the place in which your standing is holy ground”… What is not surprising, is this same tale differs little from the Greek or Roman myths about Zeus and Jupiter, as well as a number of other gods and goddesses that manifested themselves to humans over the millennia. Then the great and powerful Oz (Exodus 3:19)tells Moses that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless compelled by a mighty hand. Then God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart. After all, the story needs a little spiking.

The 10 Plagues

The first plague - all the water was turned to blood and that he killed all the fish in Egypt. How in the world did this event escape the notice of all literate Egyptian writers, travelers, historians, Royal scribes, and any other literate person who witnessed this amazing event? The death of all the fish, as well as under the ability of water everywhere in Egypt, would’ve been something historical to say the least. To no surprise, there is not one scrap of contemporary, literary, or historical evidence to corroborate this ridiculous story. Fiction.

The second plague - frogs covered Egypt, again; there exists no historical account anywhere of such an extraordinary event. The economic cost of a pandemic frog invasion would have been enormous, as would the potential illness when hundreds of millions of frogs died and rotted away everywhere. Fiction.

The third plague - the supernatural invasion of lice or gnats which spread everywhere. Again, such a pestilence would be very costly to their economy, as did all of these plagues, and there exist no scientific, historical, or contemporary evidence for this claim. Fiction.

The fourth plague - and invasion of flies next attacks Egypt. At this point, it is difficult to comprehend much being left to plague at this point. I apply the same point as the third plague. Fiction.

The fifth plague - now it gets interesting, the all-powerful deity kills all the cattle, horses, camels, oxen, and sheep of Egypt, sparing only the cattle of Israel (Exodus 9:3-6). The economic cost would’ve been staggering, and the resulting epidemic of disease from all the rotting animals would’ve been extraordinary… Fiction. And again, no evidence exists to support this myth. But wait there’s more…

The sixth plague - the attack of the boils, the all-powerful deity had Moses sprinkle some ashes toward the heaven in the sight of the Pharaoh, and a dust spread across the land inflicting man and beasts with painful boils… Wait a minute, what beasts? In the previous plague, God had destroyed all the beasts, sparing only those owned by the Israelites. To no surprise, no evidence supports this.

The seventh plague - next the all-powerful deity rained hail down upon every man and beast that shall be found in the field, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die (Exodus 9:19). Hey, wait a minute… What beasts? Where these beasts come from? They were killed in plague five, and then again in plague six…. Something sounds suspicious here. Fiction.

The eighth plague - wait there’s more, the plague of the Locust since the previous plague of hail would have destroyed most of the foliage, what in the world were the Locusts going to destroy? Whatever, so now there is no foliage.

The ninth plague - the three days of darkness *key dramatic music* Dunh Dunh Dunh..the Pharaoh must’ve been quite the hearty individual, having survived eight plagues so far, having lived through bloody water, mosquitoes, boils, hiding inside during the great hailstorm that killed every living thing caught outdoors, and the famine that would’ve followed the locust plague, and now a three-day blackout. Curiously, there exists not one word written anywhere outside of the story in the Hebrew Bible, of three days of darkness. One would surmise that this would’ve been a great time for the Israelites to sneak away from their master as by this point everyone would’ve been hiding inside, and three days of darkness allows one a lot of time to leave. Fiction.

The tenth plague - this infamous plague (Exodus 12:12-29) is the event commemorated during Passover: the killing of all firstborn humans and other living things, except of course the Israelites putting the mark of Lamb’s blood upon their doors. One would question, why would an all-powerful God, all-knowing God, require a drop of lambs blood upon the doors of his chosen people to identify them? Are they suggesting that God did not know who his chosen people were? Truly? Logistically, how does one inform 2 million Israelites in one night, to mark their door with blood? Where did the Israelites immediately obtain an estimated 240,000 or so lambs necessary for this mass sacrifice? Why would the universe and life creating God require animal sacrifice?

Additionally, the Egyptian population itself throughout the entire nation is estimated to have been 3-3.5 million people. Is one to believe that the slaves equaled the Masters? After the utter decimation of the Egyptian population by God, why would the slaves need to flee in the first place? Surely the Egyptians, having gone through 10 levels of plague, had other things to worry about besides where the 3 million slaves went too. How could the few survivors have even tried to stop it? If Egypt was so devastated, with nearly every living thing killed, including most able-bodied men, it would be easy for the millions of spared Hebrews to overwhelm the remnants of the Egyptians and take over the entire country, rather than fleeing into the relatively poor and inhospitable wilderness.

Unleavened bread

Exodus 12:8 talks about the unleavened bread and bitter herbs to be eaten as Passover. As the story goes, they had to flee so quickly that they did not have time for the bread to rise. This is a simplistic and anachronistic story. The Bible (Gen 19:3) records the use of unleavened bread by Abrams nephew, Lot, centuries earlier, according to the story.

No formal organization

As per the story, the Israelites had no formal and centralized organization until after they were already settled in the desert. How could any of the Exodus events have been organized with millions wandering around aimlessly with no chain of command? Exodus 13:18 claims the Israelites left Egypt “equipped for battle.” Where did the slaves get the equipment? How could Moses have executed “brilliant” military tactics with these untrained fighters? Where did these slaves learn these military tactics? Such a massive force on the move would surely have left some mark in the desert. To no surprise, despite the wishful attempts by various devout researchers, not a single unambiguous and scientifically verified artifact has ever been found from such a vast and long-term migration.

Exodus encampments

Biblical literalist like to claim the existence of purported ancient encampments along the supposed Exodus route, now visible using technologies such as Google Earth, and that this evidence proves the biblical story to be true.

First, if these were the biblical sites, they would need to be enormous. Regarding the massive encampments of the Israelites and their animals, the latter that is estimated to be at least the same as the number of Israelites, over 2 million, consider the following:

Every one of the 42 times the camp was pitched (Num 33) there must be suitable space found for some 250,000 tents, laid out (Num 2) regularly four-square around the holy Tabernacle, after that was constructed, and with the necessary streets and passages, and proper spaces between the tents. A man in a coffin occupies about 12 ft.², 6’ x 2’. Living people would not be packed in their tents like corpses inside a sardine can; they must have at least, say, three times that space, 36 ft.² or 4 yds.² each. A tent to house ten persons with minimum decency must occupy an average of 40 yds.². If 241,420 such tents were set one against another, with no intervening space or separating streets, they would occupy 9,656,800 square yards, or over 1995 acres of ground, a little more than 3 mi.².

Second, where did all the tents come from? It is estimated that the amount of tents needed for this proposed 2 million refugees would be at least 200,000. Who would’ve owned so many tents inside Egypt, or how did the Hebrews construct them all in the desert wilderness? Exodus 12:39 says the Israelites fled in a hurry, without even their bread time the rise, yet they are depicted as hauling a huge amount of Egyptian gold and other precious artifacts, along with the massive animals and, apparently, an enormous quantity of tents.

Water Sources

Two to three million people and hundreds of thousands of animals would have required a huge amount of water. In Exodus 15:25 we find that the well was bitter, and God gave Moses direction to make it sweet. Calculations show that the Israelites and their livestock would’ve needed some 8000 m³ of water per day.

Heavenly manna

At Exodus 16:4 appears the magical story of “bread from heaven,” elsewhere known as manna. This magical and supernatural manifestation is described as made with honey, or taste like fresh oil, and described as a flake-like a thing, round thing, or coriander seed. Of course, there’s never been any evidence of this magical food raining from heaven, or any residue of it.

Bird sacrifice

In the book of Leviticus, we read about the numerous animal sacrifices, including thousands upon thousands of birds per day, but we are not told where these birds come from in the middle of the desert. Indeed, throughout the entire book appeared detailed instructions on how to sacrifice all these animals, repeated abundantly; yet the common people apparently were kept out of that feasting and were fed flake-like round things (manna)found on rocks instead.

Wait there’s more, while the Israelites were starving subsisting off manna and water, the great and powerful Oz required not only the sacrifice of thousands of animals but also heaps of “shewbread” (Exodus 25:30) made with fine wheat flour (exodus 29:2, 40). Now where did the Israelite priest obtain this “fine flour” out in the middle of the desert, where people were starving? It seems rather odd that 600,000 lawyers would subsist solely on manna while watching their wives and children go hungry, while thousands of food animals were being immolated, and expensive and difficult to procure fine wheat flour was given as bread to God.

29 trillion quails?

At Exodus 16:13, the great and powerful Oz brings forth a huge amount of quails from the sea to feed his chosen people. Let’s examine this, we read at Number 11:31 that these quails were “stacked up on the face of the earth” to a height of two cubits, equivalent to about 44 inches high, in a row the length of “a day’s journey around the camp.” Estimates show based on the settlements descriptions at Numbers 2 and 24, that the camps total mass would be 4,569.76 square miles or 452,404,727,808 cubic feet of birds. This equates to approximately 29 trillion individual birds. Let’s say this estimation was 99% inaccurate, we would still be discussing 290 million birds, to be picked up immediately, cleaned, cooked and consumed by couple million people, providing dozens or hundreds of quails per person. Where do they get all the wood to cook with, and what did they do with the birds remains?

I could go on at great length, but who truly wants to read all that? In conclusion, scholarly consensus asserts that there is no archeological evidence to support a late bronze age Exodus, and no historical proof for the Exodus can be placed within any specific period. Not a single shred of credible physical evidence has ever been discovered anywhere in over a century of scientific excavations, and scouring of the Sinai desert for any sign of the Israelites 40-year journey. The entire Exodus story appears unreal, even beyond supernatural miracles. The Pharaoh is never named, in dozens of pages of text, despite the fact that Egyptian kings were well-known and inscribed their names all over monuments.

Furthermore, the biblical text contains abundant anachronisms including the names of people’s such as the Philistines, Edomites and Midianites who did not exist as such at the purported time. The inclusion of these anachronisms fits in with political issues during the seventh century. Clearly, the Exodus account was written long after the purported events, revealed in its anachronisms and simplicity in many instances. The setting reflects an era centuries later and unfamiliarity with the milieu of the purported Exodus period.

The Exodus is not a historical event fictionalized but a mythical motif historicized. Again, the difference may seem subtle but is highly important. The archetypal myth existed first and was utilized as a framework upon which to build a national epic. The fact that anyone can purport to believe that this ridiculous tale has even a grain of truth to it, is disingenuous, and hubris in nature.

References:

Finkelstein, and Amihai Mazar. The quest for the historical Israel. Atlanta, GA: Society of Biblical Literature. 2007. Print.

Frankee, William. The Exodus Epic: Universalization of History through Ritual Repetition.Lanham, Md: Association and University Press of America, 2012. Print.

Murdock, D. M. Did Moses exist? The Myth of the Israelite Lawgiver. Seattle. Stellar House Publishing. 2014. Print.

Redford, Donald. Aspects of Monotheism. Biblical Archaeology Review, 1996.

Tait, John. Never Had the Like Occurred: Egypt’s View of its Past. London: UCL Press, 2003. Print.

Wheless, Joseph. Is It God’s Word? New York: Cosimo, Inc. 2007. Print.

Smartass

Drooling

Thoughts? Opinions?

When it comes to the issue of there not being an existing contemporary record of any Exodus event by anybody, let alone a culture known for record-taking, I'll give you the Q'Contin Rebuttal to chew on:

"Do you think they would keep records of such a humiliation as all their slaves running off?"

What else CAN they posit? Zero evidence of such a huge story of the bible and the jewish faith completely demolished by zero substantiating evidence. Buuuuuut, the fact of no corroborating evidence archaeologically kind of puts a huge hole in the titanic called the Exodus. Laughat

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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03-08-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(02-08-2015 10:41 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 10:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  What kind of Christian would say such a thing?!
Educated christians would.
Educated Christians wouldn't call the Bible BS.
Educated Christians would say: The Bible is full of errors. They don't need an atheist to tell them this.

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03-08-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(03-08-2015 09:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 10:41 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Educated christians would.
Educated Christians wouldn't call the Bible BS.
Educated Christians would say: The Bible is full of errors. They don't need an atheist to tell them this.

Educated in the field of theological studies christians understand and accept that the bible is riddled with pseudepigrapha, parables, allegorical writings, fiction, forgery and fantasy. So they focus on "the message" in order to maintain their faith. They believe that the divine message worked through the incapability of man to capture the message in its true intent, and thus the creation of parables, and awe inspiring stories was allowed to happen to bring man to god.

The point they miss is, the entire thing can be traced back to its fabrication, and assimilation, plagiarized from older Greek, Crete, Babylonian and Sumerian myths. So how does one identify truth amongst the fiction, forgery and fantasy? How does one dismiss the plethora of countering evidence? How does one choose to not look at the copious amount of real physical evidence that completely debunks all of the major stories of the bible? Without miracles, the story of jesus has no power, he is just yet another delusional raving madman who self proclaimed himself to be the messiah foretold in the older Judaeo writings. Since christianity is based on the belief that jesus was the son of god, and there exists zero evidence to support that, then christianity, like all religions, is false.

You're right, Educated in theology christians dont need an atheist to point out to them what they already know. It is uneducated in theology believers like yourself that do though. That is why I do what I do...educate the misinformed and misguided, like you.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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03-08-2015, 10:15 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2015 10:20 AM by dancefortwo.)
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(03-08-2015 08:22 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(03-08-2015 03:11 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  When it comes to the issue of there not being an existing contemporary record of any Exodus event by anybody, let alone a culture known for record-taking, I'll give you the Q'Contin Rebuttal to chew on:

"Do you think they would keep records of such a humiliation as all their slaves running off?"

What else CAN they posit? Zero evidence of such a huge story of the bible and the jewish faith completely demolished by zero substantiating evidence. Buuuuuut, the fact of no corroborating evidence archaeologically kind of puts a huge hole in the titanic called the Exodus. Laughat

Being the practical person that I am, I wonder where they put all the human and animal shit? With that many people shitting and peeing the sanitary conditions would have been deplorable and the risk of disease extremely high. That's not including women's menstrual rag washing that would need to happen or babies diapers.

So you need to figure out how many latrines they would have had to dig for that many people.......unless they just crapped like a cat and buried it. I grew up with an outhouse that was about 12 feet deep and there were 6 of us. After 7 or 8 years it was almost up to the top. So that might give you an idea of how many latrines would be needed and how deep each hole should be dug.

Or.......maybe all the shit was magically poofed away. Maybe god had a minion, a Tinkerbell like lackey, whose special task was to make all the shit disappears. Angel

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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03-08-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(03-08-2015 10:15 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(03-08-2015 08:22 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  What else CAN they posit? Zero evidence of such a huge story of the bible and the jewish faith completely demolished by zero substantiating evidence. Buuuuuut, the fact of no corroborating evidence archaeologically kind of puts a huge hole in the titanic called the Exodus. Laughat

Being the practical person that I am, I wonder where they put all the human and animal shit? With that many people shitting and peeing the sanitary conditions would have been deplorable and the risk of disease extremely high. That's not including women's menstrual rag washing that would need to happen or babies diapers.

So you need to figure out how many latrines they would have had to dig for that many people.......unless they just crapped like a cat and buried it.

Or.......maybe all the shit was magically poofed away. Maybe god had a minion, a Tinkerbell like lackey, whose special task was to make all the shit disappears. Angel

hehe yes, all great thoughts, and valid questions. Perhaps the poop was smeared upon the magical rocks, and when it dried in the sun it became manna Consider

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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03-08-2015, 10:36 AM
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(02-08-2015 10:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  For a church to be considered a New Testament church it shall accept the biblical New Testament as its sole authority for all matters of faith.
Considered by whom?
To be considered true Church of Jesus Christ it shall accept those whom God sends - His Prophets and Apostles and the Holy Ghost.
True Church doesn't worship a book.
A book is not authority for those who belong to true Church of Jesus Christ.
Only God is Authority.
(02-08-2015 10:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  New Testament church parishioners believe that any hierarchy outside of the local church, is unsupported by Scripture
Oh really? Did they tell you this? by what Scripture? the Bible that didn't exist yet?

P.S. Emperor Constantine had no authority from God.
By the end of the 1st century true Church of Christ didn't exist on Earth any more.
(02-08-2015 10:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  How is it possible to affirm that Jesus is somehow God while avoiding the undesirable conclusion that there are two gods?
If you understand what "one God" means you understand why Jesus is also God.
True Church of Jesus Christ doesn't have to figure out this enigma.
There are two Gods but for us(people of Earth) there is only one God - God Son Yahweh or Jesus Christ. He created this Earth. He is our God. And God Son Yahweh or Jesus Christ has His God and His Father.
Paul: there are many gods but to us(covenant people) there is only one God whom we worship - Jesus Christ or God Son Yahweh.

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03-08-2015, 10:41 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2015 04:26 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Evisceration of the Exodus
(03-08-2015 10:36 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-08-2015 10:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  For a church to be considered a New Testament church it shall accept the biblical New Testament as its sole authority for all matters of faith.
Considered by whom?
To be considered true Church of Jesus Christ it shall accept those whom God sends - His Prophets and Apostles and the Holy Ghost.
True Church doesn't worship a book.
A book is not authority for those who belong to true Church of Jesus Christ.
Only God is Authority.
(02-08-2015 10:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  New Testament church parishioners believe that any hierarchy outside of the local church, is unsupported by Scripture
Oh really? Did they tell you this? by what Scripture? the Bible that didn't exist yet?

P.S. Emperor Constantine had no authority from God.
By the end of the 1st century true Church of Christ didn't exist on Earth any more.
(02-08-2015 10:47 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  How is it possible to affirm that Jesus is somehow God while avoiding the undesirable conclusion that there are two gods?
If you understand what "one God" means you understand why Jesus is also God.
True Church of Jesus Christ doesn't have to figure out this enigma.
There are two Gods but for us(people of Earth) there is only one God - God Son Yahweh or Jesus Christ. He created this Earth. He is our God. And God Son Yahweh or Jesus Christ has His God and His Father.
Paul: there are many gods but to us(covenant people) there is only one God whom we worship - Jesus Christ or God Son Yahweh.

Well since an uneducated, proven liar, womanizing criminal, Joseph Smith, cooked up your BS church, the LAST community on this planet that would be considered the "true church" is the LDS church.

Alla, do you actually think ANYONE here takes that pious drivel you spout, seriously ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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