The "Fake news" conspiracy
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03-12-2016, 10:54 PM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(03-12-2016 08:36 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I'm guessing you've forgotten how the Republicans called Obama a NaZi back in 2010? Or maybe how the Republican Congress flat-out refused to consider his recent SCOTUS nominee -- an abdication of duty as well as political discourse?

lol what does that have to do with this thread? I'm not arguing in favour of left or right partisanship..

(03-12-2016 09:33 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yep. Fox, Breitbart, The Drudge Report, Wall Street Journal, etc. They're all only 5%. Everything else is a bastion of liberal bias.

Sure they are dipshit, sure they are. Tell me again just how oppressed the conservatives are. Drinking Beverage

Sarcastic paraphrasing isn't an argument lol. Keep your irrelevant conjecture to yourself.
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03-12-2016, 11:39 PM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
It sounds like fake statistics.

I'm still not sure where imaginary lines folks in America think are there in defining what is liberal or conservative.

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04-12-2016, 12:30 AM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(03-12-2016 06:30 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  From: http://www.newslogue.com/debate/138

"It's becoming more and more acceptable in liberal circles to ignore all information that doesn't validate one's ideology, and it's making us all stupid.
Agree 75% Disagree 25%
We now live in a society where sources that don’t confirm one’s bias are immediately dismissed as “fake news”, and nothing is considered true unless Wolf Blitzer says it. This is killing political discourse in America, and it’s turning us all into idiots.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve tried to bring up a legitimate concern about the Democratic establishment in a debate with a party loyalist and been told that I’m crazy or ridiculous because it’s a concern they’d never encountered before. Whether I’m discussing a WikiLeaks release that didn’t get much coverage or the fact that Hillary Clinton really seemed to be gearing up for an all-out war with Russia, I have never, ever been met with sincerity or had my concerns directly addressed in an earnest debate of ideas with a Hillary voter. Not once. Not one single time, ever, to this day. And I’ve spoken to a lot of them.

They consistently dismissed me and told me I was crazy for bringing up such concerns, because they’d never heard about them. Why had they never heard about them? Because they live in an echo chamber. They’d never heard Rachel Maddow discuss the fact that Obama’s cabinet was selected for him by an executive from Citibank before he was even elected, which determined his administration’s lax and lenient policies toward Wall Street. They’d never heard John Oliver go on a self-righteous tirade about how a top Marine Corps General and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said Hillary’s plan for a no-fly zone in Syria would necessarily entail a direct war with Russia. They’ve never been told about these things by Chris Cuomo or the Washington Post. All they’d ever been told by their friends and favorite pundits is that they’re right, and everyone who disagrees with them is at best privileged and ignorant, and at worst racist and fascist.



And it’s only gotten worse ever since the “fake news” smear campaign began against alternative media. Now every single time I try to substantiate my argument with a link or a source when debating a neoliberal, they tell me my source is invalid unless it comes from one of the mainstream news sites that have consistently avoided covering anything that made Clinton look bad. The talking heads on TV are telling them that it’s okay to do this now, that they no longer have to look at a news story and address its content anymore, because unless it comes from NBC, CNN or the New York Times, it’s fake. People are even doing this with mainstream outlets like The Observer and Fox News now; it happens routinely in my interactions with them. Try talking about how their favorite neoliberal outlets hardly ever cover WikiLeaks or the Clinton Foundation scandals and they call you a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist, even while they themselves feel perfectly comfortable and sane blaming Hillary’s loss on a vast global Trump-Putin-Comey-Assange conspiracy.

Political discourse is dead in America. We can’t debate each other anymore. Open dialogue between opposing viewpoints has been cut off completely, and instead we all now seek out whatever echo chamber we find the least egoically challenging, wall ourselves off from the rest of the world, and listen to the soothing voices tell us how right we are.

Nobody wants truth anymore. We all just want to feel like we’re right and everyone else is wrong, and we don’t care how many lies it takes to make that happen. The light of truth is uncomfortable for our political identities, so we avoid it.

This is of course happening across all ends of the political spectrum. There are still to this day Republicans who insist that Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, and there’s no shortage of voices authoritatively confirming that bias for them. Even my beloved Greens have it, many of them currently criticizing their own Jill Stein for her initiative to get vote recounts because it risks putting Clinton in the White House, which many on the far left (myself included) find much scarier than President Trump. Forget truth, forget light; they just want to get their way. They’re more than happy to try and manipulate and control what happens as long as it leads to them getting what they want and avoiding what they don’t want. These people would probably rig elections themselves if they could get away with it.



But all things are not equal; the neoliberals are unquestionably the worst. No other political group arbitrarily labels those who disagree with its ideology as fascists and Nazis, and then refuses to listen to anything they say because “I’ll be damned if I’ll sit and listen to a bunch of fascists and Nazis.” No other political group dismisses any news media outside of its preferred echo chamber as “fake news”. No other political group is still trying to claim that WikiLeaks did something wrong by sharing the truth with the American people. No other political group scoffs at and dismisses any story that they haven’t seen discussed inside their own personal echo chamber. No other political group resorts to bullying and ad hominem attacks to anywhere near the extent that Clinton liberals do.

It is only the neoliberals, the Democratic party loyalists that are doing these things. But since they’re a massive group right smack in the middle of the political spectrum, with the Republicans and Libertarians on the right and the Berners, Greens, socialists and progressives on the left, it’s putting a massive wobble on political dialogue all across the board. Sick of being abused and bullied by Clinton Democrats, many leftists have just stopped talking to anyone outside their circle, except maybe to the deplorables, who at least treat them kindly. Sick of being told that they’re racists, fascists and Nazis, people who supported Donald Trump for president have done the same, pulling away into their own segregated circles while trying to avoid the onslaught of attacks, fearmongering and censorship. And right there in between is the political group that’s causing it all, happily feeling righteous and validated in their little echo chambers while laughing away at the latest episode of The Daily Show.

This is making us all stupid, and it has got to stop. Democracy can’t function this way. If we know that our government has been lying to us and the media has been helping them, it’s of utmost importance that we become more open and honest with each other, not less. We can’t steer this country if we can’t see where we’re going, and we can’t see where we’re going if we’re not talking to each other. It’s of utmost importance that we get out of our echo chambers and start learning what's really happening with the actual people in actual America.

Imagine how much brain power we’d have if we started connecting instead of separating. It’s not necessary that we all agree on everything, all we’d have to do is keep a sincere, open sharing of ideas and information happening across the ideological gaps. Each group would force the others to step up their game and come up with better and better arguments for their position, and we’d be shown the inherent flaws in our ideology that need to be fixed. This would be a movement toward greater and greater intelligence instead of greater and greater idiocy. I don’t know about you, but I find that infinitely preferable."

I'm tempted to scream "Fucking typical of the far left to offer criticism but no practical solutions" ... just for irony.

But no, that's a well-written article and echoes the bewilderment I experienced while watching the build-up to the US election unfold here on TTA.

People who have earned my respect through e.g. eloquent demolition of unfounded god-beliefs appeared, on occasions, to be blind to their own biases regarding their own political beliefs - correction: political idols - failing to apply the same critical analysis and applauding posts that offered up confirmation.

And the people who had not earned my respect were worse, of course, because they're shitheads. Wink

Well, that's natural and reveals our pithecoidal desires as much as it reveals our beliefs.

What disappointed more was the shouting down of the iconoclasts who seemed to get the roughest deal and were being ignored ("Yeah, thanks Cassandra, we'll be in touch") or worse being labeled as belonging to the opposition in an instinctive "If you're not with us, you're against us" reaction. I think this is what the article is bemoaning and I agree.

But I was noticing something else too ... amongst the sniping (the jab-posts and often cruel but witty neg-reps (looking at you Gilly Tongue)) ... there was plenty of "open sharing of ideas and information happening across the ideological gaps". So all is not lost.

I note that you copy/pasted the article wholesale and did not offer your own view...

As you pointed out to me recently:

[Image: 33632a8d005ff6766e743bc79ba8e56a.jpg]

So what would be your solution to this?

Great minds need to know.

Yes

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04-12-2016, 02:50 AM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(04-12-2016 12:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(03-12-2016 06:30 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  From: http://www.newslogue.com/debate/138

"It's becoming more and more acceptable in liberal circles to ignore all information that doesn't validate one's ideology, and it's making us all stupid.
Agree 75% Disagree 25%
We now live in a society where sources that don’t confirm one’s bias are immediately dismissed as “fake news”, and nothing is considered true unless Wolf Blitzer says it. This is killing political discourse in America, and it’s turning us all into idiots.

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve tried to bring up a legitimate concern about the Democratic establishment in a debate with a party loyalist and been told that I’m crazy or ridiculous because it’s a concern they’d never encountered before. Whether I’m discussing a WikiLeaks release that didn’t get much coverage or the fact that Hillary Clinton really seemed to be gearing up for an all-out war with Russia, I have never, ever been met with sincerity or had my concerns directly addressed in an earnest debate of ideas with a Hillary voter. Not once. Not one single time, ever, to this day. And I’ve spoken to a lot of them.

They consistently dismissed me and told me I was crazy for bringing up such concerns, because they’d never heard about them. Why had they never heard about them? Because they live in an echo chamber. They’d never heard Rachel Maddow discuss the fact that Obama’s cabinet was selected for him by an executive from Citibank before he was even elected, which determined his administration’s lax and lenient policies toward Wall Street. They’d never heard John Oliver go on a self-righteous tirade about how a top Marine Corps General and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff said Hillary’s plan for a no-fly zone in Syria would necessarily entail a direct war with Russia. They’ve never been told about these things by Chris Cuomo or the Washington Post. All they’d ever been told by their friends and favorite pundits is that they’re right, and everyone who disagrees with them is at best privileged and ignorant, and at worst racist and fascist.



And it’s only gotten worse ever since the “fake news” smear campaign began against alternative media. Now every single time I try to substantiate my argument with a link or a source when debating a neoliberal, they tell me my source is invalid unless it comes from one of the mainstream news sites that have consistently avoided covering anything that made Clinton look bad. The talking heads on TV are telling them that it’s okay to do this now, that they no longer have to look at a news story and address its content anymore, because unless it comes from NBC, CNN or the New York Times, it’s fake. People are even doing this with mainstream outlets like The Observer and Fox News now; it happens routinely in my interactions with them. Try talking about how their favorite neoliberal outlets hardly ever cover WikiLeaks or the Clinton Foundation scandals and they call you a tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist, even while they themselves feel perfectly comfortable and sane blaming Hillary’s loss on a vast global Trump-Putin-Comey-Assange conspiracy.

Political discourse is dead in America. We can’t debate each other anymore. Open dialogue between opposing viewpoints has been cut off completely, and instead we all now seek out whatever echo chamber we find the least egoically challenging, wall ourselves off from the rest of the world, and listen to the soothing voices tell us how right we are.

Nobody wants truth anymore. We all just want to feel like we’re right and everyone else is wrong, and we don’t care how many lies it takes to make that happen. The light of truth is uncomfortable for our political identities, so we avoid it.

This is of course happening across all ends of the political spectrum. There are still to this day Republicans who insist that Obama is a Kenyan Muslim, and there’s no shortage of voices authoritatively confirming that bias for them. Even my beloved Greens have it, many of them currently criticizing their own Jill Stein for her initiative to get vote recounts because it risks putting Clinton in the White House, which many on the far left (myself included) find much scarier than President Trump. Forget truth, forget light; they just want to get their way. They’re more than happy to try and manipulate and control what happens as long as it leads to them getting what they want and avoiding what they don’t want. These people would probably rig elections themselves if they could get away with it.



But all things are not equal; the neoliberals are unquestionably the worst. No other political group arbitrarily labels those who disagree with its ideology as fascists and Nazis, and then refuses to listen to anything they say because “I’ll be damned if I’ll sit and listen to a bunch of fascists and Nazis.” No other political group dismisses any news media outside of its preferred echo chamber as “fake news”. No other political group is still trying to claim that WikiLeaks did something wrong by sharing the truth with the American people. No other political group scoffs at and dismisses any story that they haven’t seen discussed inside their own personal echo chamber. No other political group resorts to bullying and ad hominem attacks to anywhere near the extent that Clinton liberals do.

It is only the neoliberals, the Democratic party loyalists that are doing these things. But since they’re a massive group right smack in the middle of the political spectrum, with the Republicans and Libertarians on the right and the Berners, Greens, socialists and progressives on the left, it’s putting a massive wobble on political dialogue all across the board. Sick of being abused and bullied by Clinton Democrats, many leftists have just stopped talking to anyone outside their circle, except maybe to the deplorables, who at least treat them kindly. Sick of being told that they’re racists, fascists and Nazis, people who supported Donald Trump for president have done the same, pulling away into their own segregated circles while trying to avoid the onslaught of attacks, fearmongering and censorship. And right there in between is the political group that’s causing it all, happily feeling righteous and validated in their little echo chambers while laughing away at the latest episode of The Daily Show.

This is making us all stupid, and it has got to stop. Democracy can’t function this way. If we know that our government has been lying to us and the media has been helping them, it’s of utmost importance that we become more open and honest with each other, not less. We can’t steer this country if we can’t see where we’re going, and we can’t see where we’re going if we’re not talking to each other. It’s of utmost importance that we get out of our echo chambers and start learning what's really happening with the actual people in actual America.

Imagine how much brain power we’d have if we started connecting instead of separating. It’s not necessary that we all agree on everything, all we’d have to do is keep a sincere, open sharing of ideas and information happening across the ideological gaps. Each group would force the others to step up their game and come up with better and better arguments for their position, and we’d be shown the inherent flaws in our ideology that need to be fixed. This would be a movement toward greater and greater intelligence instead of greater and greater idiocy. I don’t know about you, but I find that infinitely preferable."

I'm tempted to scream "Fucking typical of the far left to offer criticism but no practical solutions" ... just for irony.

But no, that's a well-written article and echoes the bewilderment I experienced while watching the build-up to the US election unfold here on TTA.

People who have earned my respect through e.g. eloquent demolition of unfounded god-beliefs appeared, on occasions, to be blind to their own biases regarding their own political beliefs - correction: political idols - failing to apply the same critical analysis and applauding posts that offered up confirmation.

And the people who had not earned my respect were worse, of course, because they're shitheads. Wink

Well, that's natural and reveals our pithecoidal desires as much as it reveals our beliefs.

What disappointed more was the shouting down of the iconoclasts who seemed to get the roughest deal and were being ignored ("Yeah, thanks Cassandra, we'll be in touch") or worse being labeled as belonging to the opposition in an instinctive "If you're not with us, you're against us" reaction. I think this is what the article is bemoaning and I agree.

But I was noticing something else too ... amongst the sniping (the jab-posts and often cruel but witty neg-reps (looking at you Gilly Tongue)) ... there was plenty of "open sharing of ideas and information happening across the ideological gaps". So all is not lost.

I note that you copy/pasted the article wholesale and did not offer your own view...

As you pointed out to me recently:

[Image: 33632a8d005ff6766e743bc79ba8e56a.jpg]

So what would be your solution to this?

Great minds need to know.

Yes

The majority of people hold gospel the left-right political concept. They suffer for it. These sufferers can, on the surface, recognise this concept as a false dichotomy and decry it, but ultimately they still have it internalised. For example: People on these boards recognise it and decry it, but it is absolutely true that any anti-left rhetoric here causes these same people to become immediately, unthinkingly, defensive, for they identify with the left subconsciously (some out-right), and thus feel personally begrudged by it. Also, alike with their reactionary defensiveness, they assume one who makes anti-left rhetoric is necessarily pro-right. This bias to belong to a group is deeply ingrained in all humans.

Solution: People need to constantly keep in mind that evolution has instilled in them certain bias'; biological imperative's. One of these imperative's is the propensity to belong to groups. Actively Keep this bias in mind, and actively keep it separate from your reasoning. One need not be left just because they despise the right.

Anyway, the powers that be are neither left nor right. This dichotomy is a tool used to create a more predictable, thus easier-to-control, population. Parties on the left, and parties on the right, are psy-ops; that's literally all they are.
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04-12-2016, 05:05 AM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(04-12-2016 02:50 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(04-12-2016 12:30 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I'm tempted to scream "Fucking typical of the far left to offer criticism but no practical solutions" ... just for irony.

But no, that's a well-written article and echoes the bewilderment I experienced while watching the build-up to the US election unfold here on TTA.

People who have earned my respect through e.g. eloquent demolition of unfounded god-beliefs appeared, on occasions, to be blind to their own biases regarding their own political beliefs - correction: political idols - failing to apply the same critical analysis and applauding posts that offered up confirmation.

And the people who had not earned my respect were worse, of course, because they're shitheads. Wink

Well, that's natural and reveals our pithecoidal desires as much as it reveals our beliefs.

What disappointed more was the shouting down of the iconoclasts who seemed to get the roughest deal and were being ignored ("Yeah, thanks Cassandra, we'll be in touch") or worse being labeled as belonging to the opposition in an instinctive "If you're not with us, you're against us" reaction. I think this is what the article is bemoaning and I agree.

But I was noticing something else too ... amongst the sniping (the jab-posts and often cruel but witty neg-reps (looking at you Gilly Tongue)) ... there was plenty of "open sharing of ideas and information happening across the ideological gaps". So all is not lost.

I note that you copy/pasted the article wholesale and did not offer your own view...

As you pointed out to me recently:

[Image: 33632a8d005ff6766e743bc79ba8e56a.jpg]

So what would be your solution to this?

Great minds need to know.

Yes

The majority of people hold gospel the left-right political concept. They suffer for it. These sufferers can, on the surface, recognise this concept as a false dichotomy and decry it, but ultimately they still have it internalised. For example: People on these boards recognise it and decry it, but it is absolutely true that any anti-left rhetoric here causes these same people to become immediately, unthinkingly, defensive, for they identify with the left subconsciously (some out-right), and thus feel personally begrudged by it. Also, alike with their reactionary defensiveness, they assume one who makes anti-left rhetoric is necessarily pro-right. This bias to belong to a group is deeply ingrained in all humans.

Solution: People need to constantly keep in mind that evolution has instilled in them certain bias'; biological imperative's. One of these imperative's is the propensity to belong to groups. Actively Keep this bias in mind, and actively keep it separate from your reasoning. One need not be left just because they despise the right.

Anyway, the powers that be are neither left nor right. This dichotomy is a tool used to create a more predictable, thus easier-to-control, population. Parties on the left, and parties on the right, are psy-ops; that's literally all they are.

Fair enough but ...
FASCIST!







Drinking Beverage

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04-12-2016, 05:20 AM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(04-12-2016 05:05 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-12-2016 02:50 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  The majority of people hold gospel the left-right political concept. They suffer for it. These sufferers can, on the surface, recognise this concept as a false dichotomy and decry it, but ultimately they still have it internalised. For example: People on these boards recognise it and decry it, but it is absolutely true that any anti-left rhetoric here causes these same people to become immediately, unthinkingly, defensive, for they identify with the left subconsciously (some out-right), and thus feel personally begrudged by it. Also, alike with their reactionary defensiveness, they assume one who makes anti-left rhetoric is necessarily pro-right. This bias to belong to a group is deeply ingrained in all humans.

Solution: People need to constantly keep in mind that evolution has instilled in them certain bias'; biological imperative's. One of these imperative's is the propensity to belong to groups. Actively Keep this bias in mind, and actively keep it separate from your reasoning. One need not be left just because they despise the right.

Anyway, the powers that be are neither left nor right. This dichotomy is a tool used to create a more predictable, thus easier-to-control, population. Parties on the left, and parties on the right, are psy-ops; that's literally all they are.

Fair enough but ...
FASCIST!







Drinking Beverage

The world is controlled by an secret illuminati jewish patriarchy (serious.)


















































































































(not serious.)




































































































































(but actually serious.)
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04-12-2016, 08:49 AM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(03-12-2016 06:40 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  The far-left majority is telling its consumers that media other than it is fake.

So that would mean ... Consider ... that the alternative media is promoting (or perhaps even starting) the conspiracy by telling its consumers that the mainstream media is spreading fake news about fake news. Clever but you no fool Girly Grog.

#sigh
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04-12-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(03-12-2016 10:54 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Sarcastic paraphrasing isn't an argument lol. Keep your irrelevant conjecture to yourself.

Where's the fun in that?

#sigh
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04-12-2016, 09:01 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2016 09:08 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
(04-12-2016 05:20 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  The world is controlled by an secret illuminati jewish patriarchy (serious.)

There's nothing secret about that. It's common knowledge. The only secret is that it is really a matriarchy. How else do you account for the conscription of every child born to a Jewish shikse? Drinking Beverage

#sigh
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04-12-2016, 10:23 PM
RE: The "Fake news" conspiracy
The problem is that a lot of these fake news stories have real world consequences.

This just happened in Washington DC. A guy marched into a pizzeria with an AR-15 to investigate the owner at gunpoint based upon an internet rumor that he was running a child sex ring.

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