The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
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01-03-2015, 08:15 AM
RE: The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
I'm with Biker. The law needs to apply to everyone equally without special classes of victims.

I'm not oblivious to the fact that certain groups face greater threats of violence than others, and what happened to you sucks and I hope they catch the bastards that did it. But, the attack on you was not the result of a lack of adequate hate crime laws. There are already several laws on the books that make what happened a crime and, should those people be caught, they face jail time. And, I disagree with you on calling the cops. You may be right and they may not care or do anything about it, but if you don't call, it' a sure bet that they won't. And, a hate crime law doesn't change anything for you. You still need to the call the cops and they still need to be willing to pursue the bastards that attacked you. There is no difference in your reality. Actually, that's not true - it changes one thing. It sets you up as different under the law. You can't have it both ways, you cant claim you want to be treated equally and then insist you be treated specially.

One other thing: I wouldn't assume the people who didn't intervene were motivated by your being transgender. There is a lot of studies that demonstrate people don't like to get involved. That's why in self defense classes they often teach women to yell "fire" instead of "help". People don't come running for "help". It's been proven over and over. It's the rare person who gets involved. Doesn't make it right, and I get that it doesn't make you feel better, but it's the reality. The odds that someone would intervene on behalf of a middle age white guy like me aren't any better than they would help you. Misery, meet company.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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01-03-2015, 08:29 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2015 08:39 AM by Anjele.)
RE: The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
I don't like the concept of blaming the victim but I do think there are times when common sense regarding one's own safety has to come into play.

There was a news story here about a young woman who was kidnapped at an ATM machine. Luckily she wasn't killed and only slightly injured though I am sure she was traumatized. The story played over and over again on the radio.

Then - the rest of the story - she was routinely going to an ATM at around 3 a.m. on Saturday mornings to deposit her pay and take cash out. Who, over the age of about 16, doesn't realize this is the perfect recipe for being robbed at some point? FFS - if you really need to get that money in the bank at 3 in morning - go use an ATM that's inside a convenience store, not a stand alone machine in the middle of a parking lot.

Crimes happen. That's a fact. Everyone should take some common sense steps to avoid situations that are ripe for a crime to occur. We each have different vulnerabilities and should take those into account when making certain decisions about where we go and what we do and when.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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01-03-2015, 08:38 AM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2015 08:43 AM by Blackout.)
RE: The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
Quote:I know that's the way that the laws in the US and, I believe, the EU, try to frame it. But, what you are getting into is a level of proof that is often impossible.

Murder for hire is an obvious thing. Murder over passion is also an obvious thing. And, in pushing those as aggravating or mitigating factors, you don't have to create special classes of people who are more worthy of justice. That's the problem with the hate crime designations.
Hate crimes don't have to create special categories of criminals and victims as well, it's just a different designation because hate crimes have different (and troublesome) motives. I don't see hate crimes any differently than I see premeditated murder compared to negligent murder. It's murder but with different motives and needs different responses.
Quote:Take the recent shooting in NC of the 3 Muslims. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it goes to trial and the guy is convicted of murder and now we are on to the sentencing phase. In some states (and generally states that have capital punishment), sentencing has a separate trial where you get into motivations and what is a just punishment. I'm not sure if NC has that, but let's say it does. The killer is going to get on the stand and argue that this was the result of a dispute over a parking space (in addition to arguing he is mentally ill and doesn't deserve to die or the maximum sentence). Personally, I think killing 3 innocent people over a parking space is an aggravating enough factor to never, ever get out of jail, but let's say it's not. Do we really want have to prove that he killed them for being Muslim in order to get to that point?
If we can prove it, why not? It notes there is prejudice strong enough to get people killed. Also, the way I see it, not every country is like America - The difference between a hate crime and a non-hate crime can be the difference between going to jail for 5 or 15 years. We don't have life in jail and capital punishment.
Quote:The problem with getting into people's personal prejudices is you create impossible standards. While there are always going to be obvious cases where the hateful motivation is obvious, those are not going to be the norm. Most people don't where their prejudices out in the open like that. And, it shouldn't matter. You are creating whole knew classes of victims when you do this, and saying some victims are less worthy of others
If we can't prove motives, we don't sentence anyone for it. If I can't prove that criminal X killed for bigoted reasons I will not sentence him for hate crimes. That's a no-brainer.

In Portugal a far right was convicted for hate crimes (he killed about 4 blacks and an indian) because he basically admitted in court that he hated everyone who isn't white (and he has a swastika tattooed). This case is an example of obvious.

Quote:I am ok with exploring this in terms of understanding how much of a threat a person is going forward. A guy who walks in on his wife in bed with another man, flips out and shoots them both is, while certainly deserving of going to jail, is probably not as much as a societal threat as the guy who kills a stranger because of their race, sexuality, etc. So, yes, I'm ok with that. But, at the point that you start creating different levels of punishment, I have a real problem. Not only because of the evidence burdens you create but because you raise some victims to a status above others. And, that is before you get into the problem with basically criminalizing the wrong thoughts.
This isn't about the victim. The victim is not important IMO, what matters is the criminal. The criminal who commits crimes for hateful reasons is different from the one who accidentally commits murder. They need different sentences, different rehab interventions. All criminals are inherently different. I don't understand your problem with different levels of punishment because hate crimes are different, just like a premeditated murder is different from a non-premeditated, and a murder followed by body disposal is aggravated, etc.

Quote:You should be protected the same as anyone else under the law. Not special. Giving groups special protections is what separates, not unites.
Actually I disagree, I don't like special groups but I think discriminated against people ought to be protected with special care, as long as there's evidence that they are targeted more often. This isn't shitting on the other majority group, this is simply caring about more targeted people. In my country committing crimes against gays for being gay is a hate crime to protect LGBT people from bigotry. Straight people don't need that law because few people kill others for being straight.

I don't think there are special categories, but not everyone is equal. For example, some people are more likely to suffer racial violence or gender violence (respectively people of colour and women) - I don't think enacting laws to protect those two groups is discriminating whites + men or creating special categories of people, it's simply embracing the facts and protecting people who are, in some circumstances, more prone to suffer crimes and have a hard time seeking help
Quote:I'm with Biker. The law needs to apply to everyone equally without special classes of victims.
Repeat - This isn't about the victim. This is about the criminal and motives. It's about finding appropriate sentences + rehabilitation methods + protecting society from bigotry.

Imo treating everyone equally under the law means two cumulative things:
- Treating equal situations the same
- Treating DIFFERENT situations differently.

It's like saying everyone has equality in job opportunities but some people are born rich and wealthy. It technically represents equality but in practice it is highly unequal. I think hate crime laws can be useful to protect groups of minorities in this case. When you convict someone for hate crimes you are saying "Hey society, bigotry is wrong, don't do it or you'll end up like this guy"

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-03-2015, 08:44 AM
RE: The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
Quote:And - as a person who has carried a firearm daily for 14 years - I suggest you get the training needed to carry legally. AND - I further advise you to know your firearm AND yourself better.

Train, train, train, then train some more. A firearm is a tool - and requires a great deal of skill to use it correctly. This includes WHEN to use it as much as how to use it.

If you've never fired a gun before - carrying one (statistically) is more dangerous to you, than NOT carrying one.

I cannot emphasize how important TRAINING is to your well-being.

(off soapbox)
I can't carry guns in my country. If someone mugs me I'm fucked

"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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01-03-2015, 09:11 AM
RE: The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
(01-03-2015 07:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You should be protected the same as anyone else under the law. Not special. Giving groups special protections is what separates, not unites.

It's easy to say that if you've never been victimized just because one or more people hate you and people like you.
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01-03-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
(01-03-2015 09:11 AM)jojorumbles Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 07:52 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You should be protected the same as anyone else under the law. Not special. Giving groups special protections is what separates, not unites.

It's easy to say that if you've never been victimized just because one or more people hate you and people like you.

Trust me - you're not the only one who's been screwed with. I've had my ass kicked before - by straight citizens and cops alike. You're not the first person in this world that's found out being "different" sometimes comes with a cost.

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01-03-2015, 11:04 AM
RE: The Fallacy of “Hate Crimes”
(01-03-2015 11:02 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(01-03-2015 09:11 AM)jojorumbles Wrote:  It's easy to say that if you've never been victimized just because one or more people hate you and people like you.

Trust me - you're not the only one who's been screwed with. I've had my ass kicked before - by straight citizens and cops alike. You're not the first person in this world that's found out being "different" sometimes comes with a cost.

Ra-men!

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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