The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
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05-04-2012, 01:53 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 01:59 PM by ALovelyChickenMan.)
The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
I've been looking through the arguments for the existence of god again and the fine tuning argument is bugging me.

Essentially, it's the argument that the constants in the universe are extremely fine tuned for the existence of life. The probability of that happening is so low that it is more reasonable to assume there was a designer. Constants such as gravity, electromagnetic constant, the proton neutron mass difference etc.

The probability behind it can be confusing for me (maybe it's just the notation, i'm not sure) so we'll just assume the normal "if the constant of gravity moved by 1 in the part -enter really small number here- then life wouldn't exist here on earth"

I haven't found a lot that address the argument (that does not confuse it with the design argument as I feel it goes off topic. It's the equivalent of hating on the christian God when you are debating the existence of any God.) but i've only thought of a few things.

It seems like a pointless argument for some reason. I.e we know that life will exist even with the knowledge that the constants of the universe are extremely small (fine tuned? I dunno, I don't like that word, it assumes a designer) because we exist. Also, there are many chances for the life to have formed because there are many many stars in the observable universe. Something like 70 sextillion?

Also, very 'improbable' things happen all the time. Like getting a certain combination out of a deck of cards. I don't think anyone would assume that was divine intervention.

But I don't like that at all. It seems like something that would just be destroyed by anyone. A good theist or atheist. And it leaves me feeling closed minded about the whole thing. As a matter of fact, that reminds me, with the arguments for the resurrection of Jesus... they seem quite poor. It feels like an active rejection of reality. Someone being resurrected doesn't seem possible and it's one of those things that need empirical evidence rather than historical deduction.

Sorry if this is seems like a messy ramble but I was just getting some thoughts across Smile

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05-04-2012, 02:01 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
Has anyone shown that these "constants" could have different values?
Maybe they are currently the only values that were possible, regardless of whether life were to form or not.
If there is only one possibility, then it is impossible to fine tune.
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05-04-2012, 02:16 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
It's amazing to theists because they appear to believe that if one thing was slightly different then the whole universe wouldn't be here. If the earth was slightly smaller for example, we might have developed legs space further out like insects because the gravity would be easier to overcome. They tend to see it as an all or nothing situation.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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05-04-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
Oh, well, the argument that the space is fine-tuned for us ergo God created it is moot when you consider that, if it wasn't the way it is, we (presumably) wouldn't exist so we wouldn't bother about the fine-tuning of the universe. I mean, we are talking about the universe because we can physically exist in it; there are numerous other ways the universe could be arranged and we couldn't exist, so naturally the one we are in is such that it allows for us to exist. I don't see the problem there.

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05-04-2012, 03:14 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
Is everything staying constant? I thought we were constantly in flux. Please forgive my ignorance as I am not very well educated. I thought that the moon was slowly moving out in its orbit and that the earth is slowing down. When I hear some argument that says that the balance is so tedious that if it were off slightly we wouldn't exist, I being to wonder about how they arrived at their conclusions. Especially biblical theists. If they believe the bible then they believe such things as a global flood. I think that some such thing as that would have called for a change in constants. Sometimes I think theists are too busy trying to disproved atheism that they miss the boat about their own claims.

As a theist, I don't care for the argument to try to support the claim of the existence of a creator. Especially with the adaptability that we can already observe within the known world. Why would we not be able to adapt to changes in various natural forces? Especially if they are gradual.

Gary
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05-04-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
I was thinking that as well Gary, well said. This planet has experienced very many variations. Plenty of times during it's existence it has been inhospitable for us. We can't at like anything is stuck in stasis. If it were, then I actually would see the god argument as a possibility. Unfortunately a lot of apologetics is saying what sounds convincng without serious research. Many of the more complex arguments are so filled with conjecture that they become pointless to debate.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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05-04-2012, 03:35 PM
 
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
I've never been too happy with the fine-tuning argument. It's an extension of the teleological argument, and I think it's an unnecessary addition to it. It presuposes the universe was created so that life could evolve, but it could just be that life evolved in this kind of universe without it being designed for that. It is very much like looking at a deck of cards and saying the queen of hearts would never have been the 32nd card if the deck hadn't been shuffled exactly as it was.

The fact that anything exists at all is the real miracle. Without God, nothing has to exist, and if nothing has to exist, nothing would exist. It is much easier for nothing to exist than for something to exist for no rhyme or reason. The odds against something existing for no reason or cause, in my opinion, approaches infinity.

As for the fine-tuning argument. It's probably a bigger miracle that no planet has collided with the earth in the time it took us to evolve and for Jesus Christ to have lived.
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05-04-2012, 03:40 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
If an infinite number of universes arose/arise, then only the one(s) in which the properties and laws which arise, ("crystalize out"), which allow continuation, will continue, (which is why we are here observing this one). Most would/could/might/fizzle out, in less than a billionth of second, (and that assumes the dimensions of space-time arise in them at all). No god needed to explain the 1 in a gazillion which keeps going. The question does remain however : if universes "rise", does that presuppose that "conditions" are right for that ("arising") ? Krauss says "no". Not so sure. But assuming there is only 1, (one) level of "conditions" is also not known, at this point. (Sort of the old, "so who created god" question").

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05-04-2012, 03:40 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
I actually think science has ascertained that something existing is much more likely than nothing existing. There is no observable non substance, everywhere scientists have looked something was there. Perhaps nothingness is simply a mental projection. Even death is not a nothingness everything is reappropriated and things continue. I don't have the exact information to back this up on me, but I believe nothing is something quite impossible.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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05-04-2012, 04:22 PM
RE: The Fine Tuning Argument for the existence of God.
Everything is fine tuned or it couldn't exist. Thinks of the miraculous ways your body works, how many parts are in tune with each other to make it work as well as possible for as long as possible.

If there was a creator of all this, theists should be worshiping science because he'd be a heck of a scientist to put all this together.

I just don't see how it follows that someone designed it all...

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