The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
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15-09-2016, 08:07 AM
The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
I often hear statements like, “A boy born in a girl’s body, or vice versa, from transgender individuals, and their supporters, and others, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense. It seems to be suggestive of aspects of being born a boy or a girl, separate from the physical body distinction, that one is born with. The non-body properties of being a girl/boy here seem a bit unknown to me. What are the non-body properties of being a girl, or a boy? It’s clearly not a matter of sexual attraction.

Much of it seems to be a cultural/social contract, such as growing your hair long, wearing makeup, or high heels and dresses, and a preference for traditional male/female roles. A sort of socially constructed gender identity rather than a biological one. I don’t think many here would suggest that a desire to wear dresses, makeup, heels, to have long curly hair is biological.

Imagine an alternative society in which men wore makeup and dresses, and women dressed like men traditionally have. All the culturally constructed roles associated with each gender is switched. Would we expect that the “boy born into a girl’s body” in our society, would feel the same way if they were born into our alternative one?

Would a traditional male gender type in our society, who relocated to the alternative one, but felt uncomfortable identifying as the male type in this alternative society, because of his own social/cultural inclinations be transgender? Particularly if he continued to associate himself with the gender roles, and inclinations of his previous society.

*****As a disclaimer, this topic is apolitical, amoral, it has nothing to do with LGBT rights, or the morality of it. I personally lean more to the left on the issue, and don’t care what bathrooms people want to use, whether consenting adults wanna get married, or whatever sort of ways a person wants to carve out his/her identity.

I’m just curious about the question here, not just in relationship to transgender, but even when it comes to myself and others. What comprises maleness, beyond physical attributes, and the social/biological distinctions of ones gender identity here.

The thread is not for the sake of debate, or an argument, because I don’t have one. I’m just curious to hear other people's views here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-09-2016, 08:19 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(15-09-2016 08:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I’m just curious to hear other people's views here.

My view is that you think about some stupid shit.

If you have serious questions about transgenderism ask one of the experts here. And it's not a girl born in a boy's body or a boy born into a girl's body, it's a boy's brain with a girl's genitals and a girl's brain with a boy's genitals.

Did I mention you think about some stupid shit.

#sigh
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15-09-2016, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2016 11:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(15-09-2016 08:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I often hear statements like, “A boy born in a girl’s body, or vice versa, from transgender individuals, and their supporters, and others, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense. It seems to be suggestive of aspects of being born a boy or a girl, separate from the physical body distinction, that one is born with. The non-body properties of being a girl/boy here seem a bit unknown to me. What are the non-body properties of being a girl, or a boy? It’s clearly not a matter of sexual attraction.

Much of it seems to be a cultural/social contract, such as growing your hair long, wearing makeup, or high heels and dresses, and a preference for traditional male/female roles. A sort of socially constructed gender identity rather than a biological one. I don’t think many here would suggest that a desire to wear dresses, makeup, heels, to have long curly hair is biological.

Imagine an alternative society in which men wore makeup and dresses, and women dressed like men traditionally have. All the culturally constructed roles associated with each gender is switched. Would we expect that the “boy born into a girl’s body” in our society, would feel the same way if they were born into our alternative one?

Would a traditional male gender type in our society, who relocated to the alternative one, but felt uncomfortable identifying as the male type in this alternative society, because of his own social/cultural inclinations be transgender? Particularly if he continued to associate himself with the gender roles, and inclinations of his previous society.

*****As a disclaimer, this topic is apolitical, amoral, it has nothing to do with LGBT rights, or the morality of it. I personally lean more to the left on the issue, and don’t care what bathrooms people want to use, whether consenting adults wanna get married, or whatever sort of ways a person wants to carve out his/her identity.

I’m just curious about the question here, not just in relationship to transgender, but even when it comes to myself and others. What comprises maleness, beyond physical attributes, and the social/biological distinctions of ones gender identity here.

The thread is not for the sake of debate, or an argument, because I don’t have one. I’m just curious to hear other people's views here.

Ya know Tomato, for once we actually agree on something, (how scary is THAT). The fact that it appears to be so much obsession with "externals" has always seemed rather odd to me.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-09-2016, 06:54 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
A boy following the gender role of a girl, or behaving in a very feminine fashion, isn't necessarly transgender either. For example, A girl behaving and dressing like a boy can still identify as girl and be heterosexual. We call them tomboys. I pretty sure you met at least one in your life. They are fairly common. Being transgender goes a bit deeper than that. GirlyMan analogy is actualy much better at representing what it is to be transgender.

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21-09-2016, 07:28 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
Being a tomboy just means there is a preference for more rugged activities. I was a tomboy until puberty. The liking of "boy activities" remained, but femininity set in. They are actually unrelated.

It never occurred to me that boys are shamed more for their preference of activities. Not that tomboys are not shamed, but it's not a taboo like it is for boys.

None of it has anything to do with gender identity.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-09-2016, 08:50 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(15-09-2016 08:19 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  My view is that you think about some stupid shit.

If you have serious questions about transgenderism ask one of the experts here. And it's not a girl born in a boy's body or a boy born into a girl's body, it's a boy's brain with a girl's genitals and a girl's brain with a boy's genitals.

Did I mention you think about some stupid shit.


What are the characteristics and expressions of a "girl" brain, opposed to a "boy" brain?

What distinguishes, a "girly" brain here, from a "boyish" brain?

What proclivities tendencies, are the result of the differences in these brain can be labeled as product of one type of brain over the other?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-09-2016, 08:51 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 07:28 AM)Dom Wrote:  Being a tomboy just means there is a preference for more rugged activities. I was a tomboy until puberty. The liking of "boy activities" remained, but femininity set in. They are actually unrelated.

It never occurred to me that boys are shamed more for their preference of activities. Not that tomboys are not shamed, but it's not a taboo like it is for boys.

None of it has anything to do with gender identity.

Out of curiosity would you associate your tomboyishness to environmental/social factors, more so than biological factors?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-09-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
It's the difference between the white and gray matter in specific areas of the brain. The structure of the brain is influenced by hormones during early pregnancy however sometimes the procedures involved in laying down the structure of the brain is interrupted by the wrong hormone.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...rain-scan/

http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content...hu194.full

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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21-09-2016, 09:08 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 08:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What are the characteristics and expressions of a "girl" brain, opposed to a "boy" brain?

What distinguishes, a "girly" brain here, from a "boyish" brain?

What proclivities tendencies, are the result of the differences in these brain can be labeled as product of one type of brain over the other?

Brain scans show that there are indeed differences. I don't have the links here at the moment, and it used to be that you could only tell using post mortem examinations, but you can now scan a brain to determine this.

From what I can remember the Corpus Callosum is larger in women, and the Bed nucleus of the stria terminalis is one example where it was found that male to female transsexuals were similar to females. Ah, it's even made wikipedia now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis

Quote:The central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) is sexually dimorphic. On average, the BSTc is twice as large in men as in women and contains twice the number of somatostatin neurons.[5] A sample of six male-to-female transsexuals taking estrogen were found to have female-typical number of cells in the BSTc, whereas a female-to-male transsexual taking testosterone was found to have a male-typical number.[6][7] The authors (W. Chung, G. De Vries, Dick Swaab) also examined subjects with hormone-related disorders and found no pattern between those disorders and the BSTc while the single untreated male-to-female transsexual had a female-typical number of cells. They concluded that the BSTc provides evidence for a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder and proposed that such was determined before birth.

Transsexual differences caught on brain scan

Quote:Differences in the brain’s white matter that clash with a person’s genetic sex may hold the key to identifying transsexual people before puberty. Doctors could use this information to make a case for delaying puberty to improve the success of a sex change later.

Medics are keen to find concrete physical evidence to help those children who feel they are trapped in the body of the opposite sex. One key brain region involved is the BSTc, an area of grey matter. But the region is too small to scan in a living person so differences have only been picked up at post-mortem.

Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.
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21-09-2016, 09:19 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 09:08 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Brain scans show that there are indeed differences. I don't have the links here at the moment, and it used to be that you could only tell using post mortem examinations, but you can now scan a brain to determine this.

From what I can remember the Corpus Callosum is larger in women, and the Bed nucleus of the stria terminalis is one example where it was found that male to female transsexuals were similar to females. Ah, it's even made wikipedia now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stria_terminalis

Quote:The central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) is sexually dimorphic. On average, the BSTc is twice as large in men as in women and contains twice the number of somatostatin neurons.[5] A sample of six male-to-female transsexuals taking estrogen were found to have female-typical number of cells in the BSTc, whereas a female-to-male transsexual taking testosterone was found to have a male-typical number.[6][7] The authors (W. Chung, G. De Vries, Dick Swaab) also examined subjects with hormone-related disorders and found no pattern between those disorders and the BSTc while the single untreated male-to-female transsexual had a female-typical number of cells. They concluded that the BSTc provides evidence for a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder and proposed that such was determined before birth.

Transsexual differences caught on brain scan

Quote:Differences in the brain’s white matter that clash with a person’s genetic sex may hold the key to identifying transsexual people before puberty. Doctors could use this information to make a case for delaying puberty to improve the success of a sex change later.

Medics are keen to find concrete physical evidence to help those children who feel they are trapped in the body of the opposite sex. One key brain region involved is the BSTc, an area of grey matter. But the region is too small to scan in a living person so differences have only been picked up at post-mortem.

Antonio Guillamon‘s team at the National University of Distance Education in Madrid, Spain, think they have found a better way to spot a transsexual brain. In a study due to be published next month, the team ran MRI scans on the brains of 18 female-to-male transsexual people who’d had no treatment and compared them with those of 24 males and 19 females.

The similarities seem to be the result of estrogen/testosterone therapy indicated in the wikipedia link.

Regardless I'm more curious as to how these differences, express themselves. What patterns, what behaviors, tendencies do you think result from them. What tendencies/ behaviors would you associate with the female brain here, as opposed to the male brain?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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