The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
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21-09-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
You're overthinking this Tom.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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21-09-2016, 12:47 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 11:48 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-09-2016 09:27 AM)Dom Wrote:  I just loved climbing trees, playing ball and jumping off a roof into a big pile of leaves and so forth. Not practical to wear frilly little girl's dresses for that.

You just gave me an idea.

Don't try this at home!!! Tongue

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-09-2016, 01:23 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 11:37 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  But if gender were wholly socially constructed and gender dysphoria was nothing more than a problem of socialisation, then people would not spend their entire lives fighting gender dysphoria using every means at their disposal only to fail. The entire medical establishment used to think like you, and over many years they finally came round to the conclusion that the only cure that works is gender reassignment. This would not be the case it was a matter of learned behaviors.

I don't think that's entirely true. A desire to wear makeup, heels, dresses, to take on the style associated with particular genders, etc... are learned behaviors, but to some degree entirely irreversible. It's unlikely that we'd be able to influence any particular transgender individual to dress and act in accordance with the socially constructed norms, learned behavior of their biological gender.

And not all problems have convenient solutions. It may just be that gender dysphoria rather than being a biological disorder, is produced by a series of environmental factors, and gender reassignment might be the best course of treatment. That it's irresolvable through any particular therapy, or counseling.

Quote:You are not taking into account that we are hampered by our ability to measure and understand the workings of the brain. As I said before, work is still in progress. It was only about twenty years ago when they found a difference in autopsies, and only recently that they have started to spot differences that can be scanned. There just isn't the funding for this kind of investigative work to be carried out. I've had many questions about how neurons function for example and I was told that they were good questions, but until someone gets the funding to actually investigate, we just won't know.

Clearly the science we have on the subject is not very strong here, raises far more questions than it answers. Perhaps in the future we'll have significantly better material to understand this better. Which ever way this future evidence swings, it will be interesting.

If Gender Dysphoria is biological, then this would indicate to me that there are biological fixed points of the male/female identity, that's not purely a matter of body parts. That certain aspects we might associate with social learning, and environment influences, are more innate than not.

If these aspects are not biological, than it would seem to indicate that Gender Dysphoria is an environmentally produced situation.

Quote:So you can't say that the biological component seems non-existent when we don't actually know how most of the brain functions. It's like looking into a dark room and concluding that nothing's there.

If this analogy held, that I don't see much of a difference between claiming there's nothing in the dark room, and claiming there's a lot in the dark room. You seem to hold that Gender Dysphoria is biological rather than environmental, even though you claim we're both looking at a dark room when drawing our assumptions here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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21-09-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  [...] If these aspects are not biological, than it would seem to indicate that Gender Dysphoria is an environmentally produced situation.

No.

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21-09-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
Gender Dysphoria is what someone experiences when their gender is not aligned with their sex. When I look into the mirror naked and see boobs and female genitals, I have a problem. I feel Gender Dysphoria. This is because, although I grew up with this exact body, my brain still expects a male body in the mirror. It is not a wish, it is what is expected.
I have two brothers and at home, of course you'd see each other naked sometimes? So when I was a little child I did know the physical differences between boy and girl beause I had seen my brothers, my mother, my father... all in their birth suit so to say. One thing that I never asked because I knew that bodies change when we grow up, so I assumed that one day my penis will grow. Well it never did. But I had expected it to happen and when it didn't I was confused because I was little and my brain was not a girl's brain.

So how to tackle this "how do you know?" and such questions...
I used to try and give examples or so. But it was always insufficient because many things nowadays apply to both men and women.
I used to go the route of, gender roles and gender being on a scale blabla. But I found that this approach does next to nothing because you feed raw data instead of understanding.
So I would like to ask something else, for those who want definitions.
You define to me, why you think you are the gender that you identify with. So if you are a woman, why do you think you are? And same if you are a man. What is that defines your gender? Is there something deeper and more strong than visual clues, that define your gender for you?
Is it really the gender roles?
I don't think so, because we are living in a time where women can be mechanics and men can be stay at home parents. A lot of the traditional gender roles are going away so if we cannot pin point it that way, then how?
So I am born with a vagina, that is what the doctor saw when I came out of my mother's womb. And so it says, on my birth certificate, at "sex" "female" and it makes sense. My birth certificate states a physical fact.
So when people see me on the street and they refer to me as "she" I can live with it as I see it as stating a physical fact. Especially when it is someone I am not close to.
BUT
As we know sex and gender are not the same.
So when I said, above, that you should think what defines you as the gender you are. Did you think about it?
Well now just try this thought next.
Try to think of people treating you differently > as the opposite gender.
Why do you feel that this behaviour towards you is incorrect? Why does it make your feel a little uncomfortable?
And now another step in our little thought experiment,.
Try imagining that this is your life. Not just a day or a week. You cannot switch it off. You can ignore it sometimes, but the more you try to ignore it, the heavier and more frequent it starts crashing down on you when you just cannot ignore it anymore.
So you stand in front of the mirror once again, seeing a body that your brain just does not expect and you question your own sanity because ... Well I am a guy/a gal but my body is wrong, it is the opposite.

Please remember I did not ask you to imagine you being another gender. I asked you to imagine being the gender you are but treated opposite of that.

cheers
I try to avoid these topics usually because it puts me in a bad place but since the OP's questions of "how do you know" / "how do you define" has not really been answered yet (or maybe I missed it), I thought I'd leave my take on it.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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21-09-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(15-09-2016 08:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I often hear statements like, “A boy born in a girl’s body, or vice versa, from transgender individuals, and their supporters, and others, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense. It seems to be suggestive of aspects of being born a boy or a girl, separate from the physical body distinction, that one is born with. The non-body properties of being a girl/boy here seem a bit unknown to me. What are the non-body properties of being a girl, or a boy? It’s clearly not a matter of sexual attraction.

Much of it seems to be a cultural/social contract, such as growing your hair long, wearing makeup, or high heels and dresses, and a preference for traditional male/female roles. A sort of socially constructed gender identity rather than a biological one. I don’t think many here would suggest that a desire to wear dresses, makeup, heels, to have long curly hair is biological.

Imagine an alternative society in which men wore makeup and dresses, and women dressed like men traditionally have. All the culturally constructed roles associated with each gender is switched. Would we expect that the “boy born into a girl’s body” in our society, would feel the same way if they were born into our alternative one?

Would a traditional male gender type in our society, who relocated to the alternative one, but felt uncomfortable identifying as the male type in this alternative society, because of his own social/cultural inclinations be transgender? Particularly if he continued to associate himself with the gender roles, and inclinations of his previous society.

*****As a disclaimer, this topic is apolitical, amoral, it has nothing to do with LGBT rights, or the morality of it. I personally lean more to the left on the issue, and don’t care what bathrooms people want to use, whether consenting adults wanna get married, or whatever sort of ways a person wants to carve out his/her identity.

I’m just curious about the question here, not just in relationship to transgender, but even when it comes to myself and others. What comprises maleness, beyond physical attributes, and the social/biological distinctions of ones gender identity here.

The thread is not for the sake of debate, or an argument, because I don’t have one. I’m just curious to hear other people's views here.

Call me when you have a real problem.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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22-09-2016, 12:02 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2016 12:31 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 04:58 PM)Leela Wrote:  I try to avoid these topics usually because it puts me in a bad place but since the OP's questions of "how do you know" / "how do you define" has not really been answered yet (or maybe I missed it), I thought I'd leave my take on it.

It gets very tiring to constantly have to justify your very existence, especially if you yourself have seriously considered in the past whether your existence should even continue. I tried answering because I thought Tomasio was asking a genuine question rather than looking to try and confirm what he wanted to believe.
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22-09-2016, 12:09 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2016 01:00 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 10:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-09-2016 10:19 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Yet there are differences between boys and girls and how they behave and think, and it's not all to do with how they are raised. We're still learning how the brain functions and what part is responsible for what.

Which aspects of how a boy or girl think and behave do you think are biological? Are innate inclinations here?

If someone isn't particularly sure whether they have a male of female brain, what behaviors and thought patterns might he/she observe, that can help them determine what type of brain he/she has?


Let me ask you a similar question.

What aspects of how a human thinks and behaves do you think are biological. Are innate inclinations here?

Whatever you tell me, someone could argue that they are environmentally produced, or that they are not shared by all humans. This is because we are all different but there are a set of features. No one feature is shared by everyone but everyone has a subset of these features.

Don't ask a single point on the graph what it means to be the whole graph.

If you want to understand the innate differences in gender then ask a primary school teacher who works with lots of boys and girls through their career. Or a new mother with a son and daughter who sees how they are different from a very young age.
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22-09-2016, 01:43 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 11:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don’t really question the biological nature of sexual attraction. I imagine that there is a biological component that draws me to scents/physical shape/feeling of a woman, etc.. That my lesbian counterpart might share with me here.

And I understand that there’s a variety of individuals who don’t feel comfortable in the particular body they were born into, whether male or female. But I lean more to the view that this is not biological. That such uncomfortability exists only when exposed to socially constructed gender roles, and finding oneself unable to identify as acutely with one they’ve been assigned too by society. Such as the brown kid who doesn’t feel comfortable being brown, and wished that he was born white. It’s hard to associate a transgender individuals sense of maleness, or femaleness as biological, as it is to associate the ethnic kid in my example sense of brownness’ or whiteness as biological. Because both masculinity and femininity, like brown and white here as identities seem more or less like a social construct.

The biological component of this identity, even at this point seems non-existent. Where is it’s a bit easier to see when it comes to sexual attraction.
I'd love to see a group of researchers study this in a few isolated towns like in The Truman Show. I don't think it's ever going to happen because of the obvious ethical concerns, but it would definitely be interesting to find out how altering the appearance (including genitalia) and gender roles/expectations of their peers would change both the occurrence and the forms of transgender feelings experienced by children. You could have a control group where everything works like in the Western world and a test group where everything we associate with gender is flipped on its head. Wouldn't it be fascinating to see transgender individuals from these two groups try to explain the basis for their gender identity to each other?

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22-09-2016, 01:52 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2016 01:57 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(22-09-2016 01:43 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I'd love to see a group of researchers study this in a few isolated towns like in The Truman Show. I don't think it's ever going to happen because of the obvious ethical concerns, but it would definitely be interesting to find out how altering the appearance (including genitalia) and gender roles/expectations of their peers would change both the occurrence and the forms of transgender feelings experienced by children. You could have a control group where everything works like in the Western world and a test group where everything we associate with gender is flipped on its head. Wouldn't it be fascinating to see transgender individuals from these two groups try to explain the basis for their gender identity to each other?

Some less than ethical doctors have performed such experiments ...

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and...r_gap.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Quote:David Peter Reimer (August 22, 1965 – May 4, 2004) was a Canadian man born biologically male but reassigned as a girl and raised female following medical advice and intervention after his penis was accidentally destroyed during a botched circumcision in infancy.[1]

Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer failed to identify as female since the age of 9 to 11,[2] and transitioned to living as a male at age 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices. He later committed suicide after suffering years of severe depression, financial instability, and a troubled marriage.[3]

What's more he was an identical twin ...

Quote:David Reimer was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba. He was originally named Bruce, and his identical twin was named Brian. At the age of six months, after concern was raised about how both of them urinated, the boys were diagnosed with phimosis.[4]:10[5] They were referred for circumcision at the age of seven months. On April 27, 1966, a urologist performed the operation using the unconventional method of cauterization,[4]:11–13[6] but the procedure did not go as doctors had planned, and Bruce's penis was burned beyond surgical repair. The doctors chose not to operate on Brian, whose phimosis soon cleared without surgical intervention.[7]

This suggests that gender is not learnt.
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