The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
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22-09-2016, 03:57 AM
The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(22-09-2016 01:52 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  This suggests that gender is not learnt.

What aspects of gender do you believe are not learnt?

I'm assuming you hold that the aspects in regards to how a women should look, act, dress in a society are learnt?

What's left after this that's not learnt?




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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24-09-2016, 12:14 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(21-09-2016 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A desire to wear makeup, heels, dresses, to take on the style associated with particular genders, etc... are learned behaviors, but to some degree entirely irreversible. [...]

Not totally correct. Females possess an innate desire to make themselves appear more "beautiful" to males—in order to encourage procreation. Obviously there's a supporting nurturing influence from the young female child's mother, but as the majority of adult females make a considered opinion in favour of wearing makeup, its ultimate innateness is proved.

Young males have zero innate desire to wear makeup or pretty dresses, or to beautify themselves. Any adult male "beautification" is entirely societal conditioning—or driven by clever marketers LOL.

(Innate means existing in one from birth; inborn; native, or arising from the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience.)

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24-09-2016, 03:24 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(24-09-2016 12:14 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(21-09-2016 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A desire to wear makeup, heels, dresses, to take on the style associated with particular genders, etc... are learned behaviors, but to some degree entirely irreversible. [...]

Not totally correct. Females possess an innate desire to make themselves appear more "beautiful" to males—in order to encourage procreation. Obviously there's a supporting nurturing influence from the young female child's mother, but as the majority of adult females make a considered opinion in favour of wearing makeup, its ultimate innateness is proved.

Young males have zero innate desire to wear makeup or pretty dresses, or to beautify themselves. Any adult male "beautification" is entirely societal conditioning—or driven by clever marketers LOL.

(Innate means existing in one from birth; inborn; native, or arising from the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience.)

I don't know, that all seems rather post-hoc. Consider

Women who don't care to wear makeup would seem to throw a monkey wrench into your assertions that "majority of adult females make a considered opinion in favour of wearing makeup, its ultimate innateness is proved". I think you are making an assertion that you cannot reasonably cash with the level of evidence you've provided. Sexual selection is a two way street.

I mean, just swap out that 'a majority of women wear makeup' with 'a majority of women are religious', does that prove theism is innate?

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25-09-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(22-09-2016 01:52 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(22-09-2016 01:43 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I'd love to see a group of researchers study this in a few isolated towns like in The Truman Show. I don't think it's ever going to happen because of the obvious ethical concerns, but it would definitely be interesting to find out how altering the appearance (including genitalia) and gender roles/expectations of their peers would change both the occurrence and the forms of transgender feelings experienced by children. You could have a control group where everything works like in the Western world and a test group where everything we associate with gender is flipped on its head. Wouldn't it be fascinating to see transgender individuals from these two groups try to explain the basis for their gender identity to each other?

Some less than ethical doctors have performed such experiments ...

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and...r_gap.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Quote:David Peter Reimer (August 22, 1965 – May 4, 2004) was a Canadian man born biologically male but reassigned as a girl and raised female following medical advice and intervention after his penis was accidentally destroyed during a botched circumcision in infancy.[1]

Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer failed to identify as female since the age of 9 to 11,[2] and transitioned to living as a male at age 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices. He later committed suicide after suffering years of severe depression, financial instability, and a troubled marriage.[3]

What's more he was an identical twin ...

Quote:David Reimer was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba. He was originally named Bruce, and his identical twin was named Brian. At the age of six months, after concern was raised about how both of them urinated, the boys were diagnosed with phimosis.[4]:10[5] They were referred for circumcision at the age of seven months. On April 27, 1966, a urologist performed the operation using the unconventional method of cauterization,[4]:11–13[6] but the procedure did not go as doctors had planned, and Bruce's penis was burned beyond surgical repair. The doctors chose not to operate on Brian, whose phimosis soon cleared without surgical intervention.[7]

This suggests that gender is not learnt.
While that's a very tragic story, I don't think it shows what you think it does. After reading the guy's whole life story, I can think of two obvious reasons why he wouldn't feel comfortable as a female. First, his parents refused to have the doctor create a functional vagina for him so he couldn't have sex or masturbate like a normal teenager and was stuck peeing through a hole in his stomach. The main treatment for gender dysphoria is genital reassignment surgery so it would make sense that this guy wouldn't feel comfortable as a girl without having a girl's genitals. Second, and perhaps even more important, is this:

"Reimer said that Dr. Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving 'thrusting movements', with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get 'down on all fours' with his brother, Brian Reimer, 'up behind his butt' with 'his crotch against' his 'buttocks'. Reimer said that Dr. Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his 'legs spread' with Brian on top. Reimer said that Dr. Money also forced the children to take their 'clothes off' and engage in 'genital inspections'. On at 'least one occasion', Reimer said that Dr. Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities."

This fucked-up, borderline pedophilic case is nothing like the experiments I had in mind. No

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25-09-2016, 06:11 AM
The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(24-09-2016 12:14 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(21-09-2016 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  A desire to wear makeup, heels, dresses, to take on the style associated with particular genders, etc... are learned behaviors, but to some degree entirely irreversible. [...]

Not totally correct. Females possess an innate desire to make themselves appear more "beautiful" to males—in order to encourage procreation. Obviously there's a supporting nurturing influence from the young female child's mother, but as the majority of adult females make a considered opinion in favour of wearing makeup, its ultimate innateness is proved.

Young males have zero innate desire to wear makeup or pretty dresses, or to beautify themselves. Any adult male "beautification" is entirely societal conditioning—or driven by clever marketers LOL.

(Innate means existing in one from birth; inborn; native, or arising from the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience.)



It seems that both male and females are predisposed to making themselves attractive to the opposite sex.

But what constitutes attractive, blondes or brunettes, light or dark complexion, beard or no beards, full-featured or skinny, makeup or all natural, is culturally/environmentally constructed.

I grew up in religious community where woman did not wear makeup or jewellery, and one of the effects of this is that for those of us who grew up in this culture, but don't believe this is wrong like our parents did, prefer a more natural look.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-09-2016, 10:25 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(24-09-2016 03:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Women who don't care to wear makeup would seem to throw a monkey wrench into your assertions that "majority of adult females make a considered opinion in favour of wearing makeup, its ultimate innateness is proved" [...]

That's why I specifically said the "majority" of females.

Human preferences may have evolved over millions of years to favour certain physical characteristics linked to reproductive fitness—youthfulness, for example, is a generally reliable cue for fertility, potentially explaining why it’s considered attractive.

Fink, Grammer, & Thornhill, 2001; Thornhill & Gangestad, 1993.

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25-09-2016, 12:00 PM (This post was last modified: 25-09-2016 01:05 PM by epronovost.)
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(24-09-2016 12:14 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Not totally correct. Females possess an innate desire to make themselves appear more "beautiful" to males—in order to encourage procreation. Obviously there's a supporting nurturing influence from the young female child's mother, but as the majority of adult females make a considered opinion in favour of wearing makeup, its ultimate innateness is proved.

Young males have zero innate desire to wear makeup or pretty dresses, or to beautify themselves. Any adult male "beautification" is entirely societal conditioning—or driven by clever marketers LOL.

(Innate means existing in one from birth; inborn; native, or arising from the constitution of the mind, rather than learned through experience.)

Citation please?

The majority of men wear pants, thus wearing pants is innate to men (unless they are ancient Greek, Roman, Persian, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese or Scotts). Most men wear their hair short and shave or trim their beard. In the same vein, while most women in our society will wear makeup once in a while, most women in history never whore any and couldn''t care less. They tried to appear beautiful in a different way. See where I am going. Its not because a practice is culturaly ingrained and common that this specific habit has roots in our evolutionary history. BTW, shaving and hair cuts, good abdominal muscle line are part of male beauty you know. Trying to please the other sex, appear healthy, capable and beautiful is innate in any human for obvious reasons (except perhapse in the case of some asexual people or people suffering of certain forms of autism or asperger syndrome). The way its expressed, either via cloathing, hair style, makeup, etc. and ritualised is cultural.

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25-09-2016, 12:18 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(15-09-2016 08:07 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I often hear statements like, “A boy born in a girl’s body, or vice versa, from transgender individuals, and their supporters, and others, but it doesn’t seem to make much sense.
(...)
The non-body properties of being a girl/boy here seem a bit unknown to me. What are the non-body properties of being a girl, or a boy? It’s clearly not a matter of sexual attraction.

I didn't bother to read the rest of the Thread, so this could be an echo of what has beeing sayed, and if that is the case, you can just tell me.

but to answer your question: There are differences between the female and male brain. For example do woman in general have a better memory, and can see more shades of red. man have often a better spatial awareness*, and of course have man and woman different hormones, which makes them react diffently to situations.

*used google translate there, might be wrong

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The worst thing about atheism is, since it's a LACK of belief, it can't be right.
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16-11-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
I've wondered about this myself actually as I don't really fit into the typical female mold. I'm far more dominant and competitive than most women, have some very masculine sexual traits, and avoid emotional and small talk. My husband is the more submissive type and is more emotionally driven and enjoys many things typically relegated to the female in a traditional relationship. The more I started hanging out with trans and gender-nonconforming people, the more I started mentally exploring what gender really meant for me. I still don't have a good answer. I asked one of my trans friends about this recently because although she is a fully transitioned female, she is still a tomboy. If genital configuration and gender norms would say she was male, what is it that made her feel like that wasn't right? She couldn't really give me a concrete answer, just that she knew it wasn't.

I guess it all depends on your own personal relationship to the concept of gender in general and your gender in specific. I don't think it means much to me personally. If gender is a continuum, I'm probably pretty much in the middle, so I identify as female just because of my biological sex. But if I was the exact same person only with a penis, I don't think that would feel wrong either. So I guess I can't understand the whole concept on a very basic level.

Someone else mentioned imagining how people would treat you differently if you were the opposite sex, and that does mean something to me. I'm often very frustrated by society treating me as a woman. Not because I'm not a woman, but because society is shitty to women. Women who can work on cars and fix stuff are highly regarded, but if you're a woman who has an interest in learning these things you're dismissed very casually for being a female. Maybe that's not a fair picture either because it goes back to gender being societally decided. I do wonder how many trans folks would feel more comfortable remaining in their birth sex if society was more comfortable with them not fully conforming to the expectations set forth by that.

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17-11-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: The Girl born in a Boy’s body.
(24-09-2016 12:14 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Young males have zero innate desire to wear makeup or pretty dresses, or to beautify themselves. Any adult male "beautification" is entirely societal conditioning—or driven by clever marketers LOL.

Well not all adult male beautification. What do you think working out is?

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