The "God Glut" in the U.S. Military
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13-12-2012, 05:40 PM
RE: The "God Glut" in the U.S. Military
You know, every now and then I think the lawsuits shouldn't be "I wanna court order to stop religious proselytizing in this government body", but "I wanna stop funding of this government body until it stops its religious proselytizing." It'd actually be an easier case to argue and I think it'd be a more effective tactic. .... though maybe not in the military, that'd be a harder sell, I mostly think it in regard to school districts in places like Alabama.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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13-12-2012, 08:06 PM
RE: The "God Glut" in the U.S. Military
(13-12-2012 05:40 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  You know, every now and then I think the lawsuits shouldn't be "I wanna court order to stop religious proselytizing in this government body", but "I wanna stop funding of this government body until it stops its religious proselytizing." It'd actually be an easier case to argue and I think it'd be a more effective tactic. .... though maybe not in the military, that'd be a harder sell, I mostly think it in regard to school districts in places like Alabama.

In the U.S. military and federal government, proseltyzing is already prohibited if anyone objects to it. You can hold a prayer meeting or Bible study group at lunch and even advertise it, but you can't make me attend. I can hold a secular or atheist discussion group at lunch and even advertise it, but I can't make you attend. You try to convert me, you could lose your job. I try to deconvert you, I could lose my job. Consequently almost zero religious discussion going on where I work. One of the best programmers on my team is an evangelical Christian. She knows I'm an atheist. That's the extent of our religious discussion. It's best this way. The Code of Federal Regulations is a powerful tool. Thumbsup

Individual State Governments, on the other hand, are a different issue.

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13-12-2012, 10:00 PM
RE: The "God Glut" in the U.S. Military
(13-12-2012 08:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-12-2012 05:40 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  You know, every now and then I think the lawsuits shouldn't be "I wanna court order to stop religious proselytizing in this government body", but "I wanna stop funding of this government body until it stops its religious proselytizing." It'd actually be an easier case to argue and I think it'd be a more effective tactic. .... though maybe not in the military, that'd be a harder sell, I mostly think it in regard to school districts in places like Alabama.

In the U.S. military and federal government, proseltyzing is already prohibited if anyone objects to it. You can hold a prayer meeting or Bible study group at lunch and even advertise it, but you can't make me attend. I can hold a secular or atheist discussion group at lunch and even advertise it, but I can't make you attend. You try to convert me, you could lose your job. I try to deconvert you, I could lose my job. Consequently almost zero religious discussion going on where I work. One of the best programmers on my team is an evangelical Christian. She knows I'm an atheist. That's the extent of our religious discussion. It's best this way. The Code of Federal Regulations is a powerful tool. Thumbsup

Individual State Governments, on the other hand, are a different issue.
And federal funds that are dispersed to arms of the individual state governments are a third issue. Big Grin You might not be able to sue the state governments to get God out of schools, but you CAN sue the federal government to stop financially supporting those schools until the state governments DO make them religion-neutral. And the interesting part would be that the state school boards in question WOULDN'T be the defendants, and would have no grounds to present their arguments to the court. The defendant would just be the federal government. All in all, a few examples would make a very effective deterrent.

It's just a small fantasy I have. In my more sober moments, I acknowledge that it would be bad tactics. (VERY bad tactics.) Besides, education (even education polluted with mandated sewage, er, I mean Creation Science) works for us. Still, I can dream, right?

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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13-12-2012, 11:03 PM
RE: The "God Glut" in the U.S. Military
(12-12-2012 02:46 AM)cufflink Wrote:  Eye-opening New York Times article by Frank Bruni about the lack of separation between church and state in the religion-ridden USA, particularly in the military:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/11/opinio...-glut.html

I knew about the Christian proselytizing that goes on at the Air Force Academy, but I didn't know the same kind of thing is happening at West Point. It's sickening--and scary. Eisenhower warned against the military-industrial complex, but the military-religious complex has the potential of doing even greater harm.

I'm interested in what you think is the "military-religious complex". I'm not necessarily disagreeing that there is one (because the military does seem to promote religion, and probably benefits somehow), but I don't understand how it would work.

Let me clarify by explaining the military-industrial complex. The military needs weapons, and there are companies that will build them. Those companies create jobs when they have military contracts, so members of congress (that represent the states that those jobs are created in) benefit. In turn, those members of congress will give the military contracts to create more weapons which will be passed on to the companies... etc. Even if we don't need more weapons, there's an incentive for congress to want to wage war in order to create jobs that make them look good.

So how would a military-religious iron triangle work? I hope you've thought this out, because it could be very educational.

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