The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
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04-09-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 09:56 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm beginning to get pretty upset that the asshat hasn't been banned.

No joke. Dead serious. Dead stop.

Start it up. Write moms or stark. Personally, I assisted for a campaign for a banning one time, and despite being successful, satisfaction was elusive. I think the reason for our excessive tolerance is that dissenting opinions remain, and stagnation is to no one's benefit. And look, already we become divisive. In the case of the past, it was ugly.

In this case, it probably won't be. Fuck him.

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04-09-2015, 10:41 AM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
I don't care at all about dissent. I welcome active debates with people who disagree with me.

But dissent requires someone to actively dissent... as in, stating their case and responding to mine. Look at a Supreme Court dissenting opinion: it spends pages of any given dissent on addressing the Majority Opinion. That is what dissent looks like.

Dropping off copypasta en masse and then saying "refer to my website" over and over is not dissent, it is contempt.

Lying about what scientists say is not dissent, it is contempt.

Refusing to answer our counter-questions is not dissent, it is contempt.

So after trying for a long time to tolerate this guy and engage on a rational level, I find he has nothing but contempt for atheists and scientists, and I shall now return that contempt, having been pushed past a reasonable point of tolerance. If we continue to tolerate this guy after he has spit in our faces so many times, then we no longer look tolerant, we look like pussies.

I've already asked for his banishment, and been turned down. I'm not going to beg. But I am going to seriously consider ceasing my participation here.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-09-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 10:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  ...But I am going to seriously consider ceasing my participation here.

That would be a loss for the forum. The rules here are pretty loose and that lets people like GE skirt the edge for longer than is perhaps optimal but forums that shut people down too quickly are worse IMO.

Ignore him, or post "already refuted" links to earlier threads, or just have fun ridiculing him, but stick around.

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04-09-2015, 01:34 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 10:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't care at all about dissent. I welcome active debates with people who disagree with me.

But dissent requires someone to actively dissent... as in, stating their case and responding to mine. Look at a Supreme Court dissenting opinion: it spends pages of any given dissent on addressing the Majority Opinion. That is what dissent looks like.

Dropping off copypasta en masse and then saying "refer to my website" over and over is not dissent, it is contempt.

Lying about what scientists say is not dissent, it is contempt.

Refusing to answer our counter-questions is not dissent, it is contempt.

So after trying for a long time to tolerate this guy and engage on a rational level, I find he has nothing but contempt for atheists and scientists, and I shall now return that contempt, having been pushed past a reasonable point of tolerance. If we continue to tolerate this guy after he has spit in our faces so many times, then we no longer look tolerant, we look like pussies.

I've already asked for his banishment, and been turned down. I'm not going to beg. But I am going to seriously consider ceasing my participation here.

I can relate to that, there are a few that I would shitcan in about 5 seconds if I was a mod. They walk a line between giving too much slack to these assholes and being too restrictive and stifling debate.
I've been appalled at some of these psychos that run amok on this forum, but at the same time, it's been very informative to read the responses. I've learned quite a bit from you and others.

Sometimes it's best just to step back and let the others deal with the loony-tunes for a while.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-09-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 10:41 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't care at all about dissent. I welcome active debates with people who disagree with me.

But dissent requires someone to actively dissent... as in, stating their case and responding to mine. Look at a Supreme Court dissenting opinion: it spends pages of any given dissent on addressing the Majority Opinion. That is what dissent looks like.

Dropping off copypasta en masse and then saying "refer to my website" over and over is not dissent, it is contempt.

Lying about what scientists say is not dissent, it is contempt.

Refusing to answer our counter-questions is not dissent, it is contempt.

So after trying for a long time to tolerate this guy and engage on a rational level, I find he has nothing but contempt for atheists and scientists, and I shall now return that contempt, having been pushed past a reasonable point of tolerance. If we continue to tolerate this guy after he has spit in our faces so many times, then we no longer look tolerant, we look like pussies.

I've already asked for his banishment, and been turned down. I'm not going to beg. But I am going to seriously consider ceasing my participation here.

Arguing over how strict the bouncers should be around here is a pastime that predates my active participation; I doubt it will ever quite go away.

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04-09-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
You think I'm asking that we "shut people down too quickly"... are you kidding?!

We have warned him repeatedly. We have asked him nicely, dozens of times. He continues without missing a beat.

When I last asked the staff to get rid of this guy, who clearly has an agenda that includes contemptuous disrespect of atheist forums, in the form of spam, references to his own website, fraudulent arguments and false quotations of scientists whom I respect, and frequent open suggestions that we're dodging him (in an attempt to appeal to the public by making us appear to be the ones who are disingenuous) when we get too tired to continue answering his BS, I was given the same schtick you just gave.

We cannot ignore him; it's a win for him if we do, because it makes it appear we're unable to answer their questions. It's the entire purpose of the "Gish Gallop", or what I call the "machinegun tactic".

The mods here are, whether they realize it or not, being just as disrespectful to those of us on here who then must take up the task of refuting or dredging up the links to previous answers, time and again, in order to prevent the damage that GE is inflicting on this board. They're giving preference to a dishonest schmuck over people of integrity.

I come to this board as a mental/psychological break from the work I do on this computer during most of the rest of the day. I come here to be free of the fundamentalist bullshit that surrounds me in the real world. I don't mind debates/disagreements, but that's not why GE is here. In fact, it ENRAGES me (if I could find a stronger word, I would use it) that the suggestion is that I am asking for GE to be banned because of dissent or any similar concept. That is exactly the impression he and those like him try to convey to the doubting public, projecting the behavior of fundies onto us. For us to "uncle Tom" to a degree that allows even the suggestion that we're protecting his right to dissent by not banning him is to make up completely false reasons and feed fuel to that fire.

I have asked him nicely to stop. I have asked him nicely to address the issues presented, and not keep doing the same thing to us over and over again. This person doesn't care, and is so deeply dishonest that they can only be a bigot against atheists (one who does not see our personhood) or a deliberate troll who just enjoys manipulating us for his amusement.

So I asked the moderators, nicely, to stop him. They refused.

I am asking now for a second, and then a third time.

It comes down to a choice: you can have the illusion of protecting free speech (which is not what this is remotely about) or you can have me go find somewhere that doesn't enrage me but calms me down when I need to get away from the dishonest/contemptuous fundie world in which I live.

I'm sorry it has to come to ultimatum, but I'm fed up with being ignored from both ends.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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04-09-2015, 02:06 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 01:41 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You think I'm asking that we "shut people down too quickly"... are you kidding?!

Not at all. I agree that GE is just spamming the board and not actually engaging in discussion. I agree that he has more than outworn his welcome. I agree that he should have been banned already; if it were up to me I could list a few more that are overdue.

All I was saying was that while this forum may let people like that stay too long, I prefer that over ones that do shut people down too quickly. It sometimes means ignoring people that you've given up trying to reason with until the mods reach the same level of frustration with them.

I have a great deal of respect for you and the depth of your knowledge and patience and have learned a lot from your posts but I think you may be taking this too personally. GE is an idiot and everybody who matters can see that. The more he posts the deeper the hole he is digging for himself gets. He is going to declare himself the winner no matter what responses he gets or whether he is banned or not. Any reasonable person reading the threads will see that you thoroughly exposed his deceptions. You should be counting it as a win.

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04-09-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 01:41 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You think I'm asking that we "shut people down too quickly"... are you kidding?!

...

We cannot ignore him; it's a win for him if we do, because it makes it appear we're unable to answer their questions. It's the entire purpose of the "Gish Gallop", or what I call the "machinegun tactic".

godexists, at least, is clearly just an idiot. Imputing some broader agenda might be a stretch. There's still some truth to it, yes; I've said - and I've seen many others say - that even given an interlocutor who clearly refuses to listen, a cogent response might at least help others.

To play the advocate, however, isn't it also possible that such barely-coherent (and barely literate) copypasta obviously reflects poorly on the originator, no matter how we respond (or don't)? Sheep are gonna bleat, man. What's it to you? Shear 'em for a lark when you like, but...

(04-09-2015 01:41 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The mods here are, whether they realize it or not, being just as disrespectful to those of us on here who then must take up the task of refuting or dredging up the links to previous answers, time and again, in order to prevent the damage that GE is inflicting on this board. They're giving preference to a dishonest schmuck over people of integrity.

The mods (or rather the forum team; there's been plenty of turnover) have been on this motherfucking interminable trollercoaster before.

To stress - I don't mean you any disrespect by that remark. I think you're a very cool guy. It's the issue that never dies. No matter how we might all agree that a line must be drawn somewhere, so far as moderation goes, the specific location of that line is going to satisfy pretty much no one, no matter what.

(04-09-2015 01:41 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It comes down to a choice: you can have the illusion of protecting free speech (which is not what this is remotely about) or you can have me go find somewhere that doesn't enrage me but calms me down when I need to get away from the dishonest/contemptuous fundie world in which I live.

I'm sorry it has to come to ultimatum, but I'm fed up with being ignored from both ends.

I haven't seen any of the loudest "BUT MUH FREEZEPEACH" advocates around lately.
(anyone talked to Hughsie any time recent?)

It depends on where the line between 'obnoxious' and 'spammer' lies. I can't see that being anything other than a subjective judgement. As such, well; you can't please everyone.

...

I do think, personally, that someone who actively refuses to engage with the forum crosses that line. But even that is a subjective judgement!

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04-09-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 08:37 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  Arguments from ignorance and arguments from incredulity punctuated with appeals to authority tied together by copy and paste from journal articles, abstracts and college level textbooks.

In many cases the articles referenced come form scientists who's quotes are taken out of context, and edited to make them appear to support his nonsense. ID is not science (as even Behe admitted in court), and ID is not the consensus opinion of scientists.

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04-09-2015, 02:58 PM
RE: The Godexists Library of Ignorance and Incredulity
(04-09-2015 02:25 PM)cjlr Wrote:  It depends on where the line between 'obnoxious' and 'spammer' lies. I can't see that being anything other than a subjective judgement. As such, well; you can't please everyone.

...

I do think, personally, that someone who actively refuses to engage with the forum crosses that line. But even that is a subjective judgement!

Of course it's subjective - it always was and always will be.

The biggest fights came when the futile attempt was made to create objective rules. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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