The Great Filter
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15-07-2016, 06:08 AM
RE: The Great Filter
(15-07-2016 04:17 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 03:40 AM)Vosur Wrote:  How come that the Czech Republic, the least religious country in the EU and the third least religious country in the entire world (second only to China and Sweden), has a higher fertility rate than virtually all of its much more religious neighboring countries? Consider


[Image: czech-republic-fertility-rate-total-birt...607310000n]

Fertility rates naturally bounce around a little bit. The above is what I found for the Czech republic.
Can you explain how that graph addresses the question I asked?

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
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15-07-2016, 06:08 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2016 06:57 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Great Filter
(15-07-2016 04:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  My argument doesn't depend on the existence of God or the validity of any religion. It rest on the fact that religious people have a higher fertility rate than non religious people. If everyone in the world adopted atheism, humanity would be doomed because non-religious simply do not reproduce in sufficient numbers to sustain a population.

You are an idiot. You don't have an "argument".
You have a possible correlation and not a proven causation.
One does not prove the other. Your entire thread is bullshit.
Religious women in 2016 have fewer children than religious women in decades previous. Your (so-called) "argument" is non-existent. You have no way, and proposed no way, to determine who is "more religious" or what that even means.

If your idiot god "decides to give children" to couples, then it's up to him, isn't it,
you fucking moron. Your fool brain is an embarrassment to humanity, Blowjob.... -54 and dropping.
You have no evidence that there is ANY "intervention" by any deity in the conception process. Your idiot god doesn't "give children". Have you ever considered joining the 19th Century ?

You have presented NOT ONE SHRED of evidence that accompanying the change in birth rates in Japan, was a change in religious values or views.
In fact, science knows that the determining factor, is not stupid gods and religion, but the economy. http://lawstreetmedia.com/issues/health-...rth-rates/
Maybe you could grow a brain some day, Blowme, real scholars don't agree with you.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/program-on-..._WP_84.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_rate

Your "great filter" Blowme, is totally BOGUS.
Japan is one of, if not THE most religious country on the planet.
http://blog.gaijinpot.com/japan-religiou...t-country/
So much for your "great filter", Blowme. But thanks for affirming for us your Utilitarian values. "The ends justify the means". "That which is valuable, is that which produces the desired results". Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-07-2016, 07:04 AM
RE: The Great Filter
(14-07-2016 02:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Religion is a reason why many people have large families and it is one tool that can get us past this filter. The existence of the human race might very well depend on the existence of religion.

This assumes that if the population of humans world-wide started plummeting, that humans wouldn't reevaluate their priorities and work to continue the species.

It also assumes you can infer causation from correlation.
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15-07-2016, 07:13 AM
RE: The Great Filter
Meh I see religion as the great filter. Given the hatred and genocide against other beliefs throughout history, I think you have a different question to answer before you try to make a correlation into causation.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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15-07-2016, 07:54 AM
RE: The Great Filter
Here's an alternative explanation for a "great filter".

Technological advance creates weapons of increasingly mass destruction, be they nukes or high explosives or machine guns or biological weapons.

And then religious nutjobs, be they in power or non-state actors, use them to kill EVERYONE.

The most you can say is that atheism isn't reproducing fast enough for your tastes and that there is a bit of population shrinkage that MIGHT be tied to that.

Religion kills people. Religion outright fucking murders people in droves, and it does it for a wish and a prayer. And believers in your god, the Abrahamic god, are both historically and at present the most blood-stained, bloodthirsty of the lot.

So if we're going to argue about the consequences of belief or non-belief, rather than which position is accurate, let's actually LOOK at the consequences.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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15-07-2016, 08:47 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2016 03:24 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: The Great Filter
Let’s see here.

Scandanavian countries have some of the world’s highest percentage of atheist per capita and yet here we have Norway with one of the highest birthrates in all of Europe

http://sciencenordic.com/why-norwegian-b...est-europe

and while the overall fertility rate of the world is dropping

[Image: r20081121-ondecline.gif]

Sub Saharan Africa is currently the hotbed for, well, the hot bed

[Image: TFRMap.png]

an area mostly Christian and Muslim

[Image: socom-africa-scenario-26-638.jpg?cb=1421145949]

[Image: faith3_jw.jpg]

population growth projections shows Africa to be the fastest growing

[Image: PF_15.04.02_ProjectionsOverview_worldGro...e640px.png]

and yet the highest birthrate among religious populations is Muslim

[Image: fertility_religion.gif]

taking a look at the total religious affiliations

[Image: 01_groups.png]


So what can be gleened from all of this? Is another ‘Out of Africa’ event is soon coming? We can already see huge migrations and immigration form Africa into Europe. Religious and ethnic violence in Africa is rampant which lends credence to how religiosity breeds violence and overpopulation.

What else do you all see from the graphs above?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-07-2016, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2016 11:19 AM by Unbeliever.)
RE: The Great Filter
(15-07-2016 01:55 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The economy of Japan, which is the third strongest in the world, can certainly support a fertility rate of 2.1.

Again, you are utterly failing to grasp the actual reasons for Japan's low birth rate. It is not that the economy is weak. It is that the factors feeding into that economy are not conducive towards starting a family.

Japan has a cultural obsession with work. Obscenely long hours are not only commonplace, but actively expected in most places; sleeping over at the office in order to get more work done is a matter of course for most Japanese workers. This leads to high economic productivity, but means that most Japanese are rarely at home and have little time to raise a single child, let alone two.

Then there is, again, the problem of overcentralization. Japan's population is overwhelmingly concentrated in Tokyo. As Tokyo is the economic center of the country, this is good for the economy (in most respects, at least), but it also leads to sky-high living costs. Real estate in Tokyo is limited. What there is tends towards both being cramped and being expensive. This leads to not having space to raise more than one child, and is one reason that Japan's government has been actively attempting to convince people to move out of the big cities for some time now.

With no time or space available, it's no wonder that many Japanese families are choosing not to have more children. Contraceptives are not the cause.

And even if they were, you have not even begun to establish a causal link between a country's high atheist population (Japan is decidedly not atheist, despite common perception; it is more that there is no direct analogue between western and eastern perceptions of religion) and low birth rate.

(15-07-2016 01:55 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Japan has a large atheist/agnostic population.

See above. This is flatly wrong.

So, in short, you are wrong in literally every possible way.

EDIT: It is also laughable to suggest that religion is the cause behind high population growth on the assumption that all religions both contain a commandment to go breed like rabbits and that all populations which follow these religions take that commandment seriously. Honestly, the vast majority of Christians don't even take that particular commandment seriously.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-07-2016, 11:13 AM
RE: The Great Filter
If you think the best argument for religion is that it motivates us to have enough children to survive, I can live with that.

You didn't claim religion was true. You didn't claim it was backed by strong evidence or that we should merely believe it on faith. You didn't claim that it was ethically profound, or even positive for humanity. You didn't claim it best explained our deep human questions, or granted us meaning.

What you said was, we need it for a purpose nothing whatsoever to do with its message.

Look at all the ground you have given.

Christopher Hitchens always said it best. "This feebleness derives from the fact that until recently, Christians could simply burn or silence anybody who asked any inconvenient questions."

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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15-07-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: The Great Filter
(15-07-2016 11:12 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 01:55 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The economy of Japan, which is the third strongest in the world, can certainly support a fertility rate of 2.1.

Again, you are utterly failing to grasp the actual reasons for Japan's low birth rate. It is not that the economy is weak. It is that the factors feeding into that economy are not conducive towards starting a family.

Japan has a cultural obsession with work. Obscenely long hours are not only commonplace, but actively expected in most places; sleeping over at the office in order to get more work done is a matter of course for most Japanese workers. This leads to high economic productivity, but means that most Japanese are rarely at home and have little time to raise a single child, let alone two.

Then there is, again, the problem of overcentralization. Japan's population is overwhelmingly concentrated in Tokyo. As Tokyo is the economic center of the country, this is good for the economy (in most respects, at least), but it also leads to sky-high living costs. Real estate in Tokyo is limited. What there is tends towards both being cramped and being expensive. This leads to not having space to raise more than one child, and is one reason that Japan's government has been actively attempting to convince people to move out of the big cities for some time now.

With no time or space available, it's no wonder that many Japanese families are choosing not to have more children. Contraceptives are not the cause.

And even if they were, you have not even begun to establish a causal link between a country's high atheist population (Japan is decidedly not atheist, despite common perception; it is more that there is no direct analogue between western and eastern perceptions of religion) and low birth rate.

(15-07-2016 01:55 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Japan has a large atheist/agnostic population.

See above. This is flatly wrong.

So, in short, you are wrong in literally every possible way.

EDIT: It is also laughable to suggest that religion is the cause behind high population growth on the assumption that all religions both contain a commandment to go breed like rabbits and that all populations which follow these religions take that commandment seriously. Honestly, the vast majority of Christians don't even take that particular commandment seriously.

I am working with exactly two japanes colleagues, both from Yokohama/Tokyo. Both chose to come to germany as expats, then after 2 years they asked for a permanent stay. Only after long conversations with them (japanese people are mostly not too open personalities) they told me why: too many people there. One of them clearly told me that he would never father a child in this environment. In the meantime he became the father of a healthy boy in germany.
All my conversations with them (and my colleagues in Yokohama) confirms what unbeliever was reporting, 100%.

Just to give a hint about the situation in areas like Toyko

Public swimming pool
[Image: tokyo-summerland-packed-wave-pool.jpg]

Or Shibuya Crossing, just above Shibuya (underground) Station. The worlds most crowded train station and worlds most crowded road crossing. A german co worker was there and made a vid (sadly i cant find it anymore) about what happens during rush hour when the lights turn green. My jaws bloody dropped to the floor.
Watch this live cam of shibuya Crossing at Tokyo rush hour, and you will understand what Unbeliever is trying to tell you. Alternatively just google a few pics. Its un-be-lievable.



Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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15-07-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: The Great Filter
(15-07-2016 12:28 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Or Shibuya Crossing, just above Shibuya (underground) Station. The worlds most crowded train station and worlds most crowded road crossing. A german co worker was there and made a vid (sadly i cant find it anymore) about what happens during rush hour when the lights turn green. My jaws bloody dropped to the floor.
Watch this live cam of shibuya Crossing at Tokyo rush hour, and you will understand what Unbeliever is trying to tell you. Alternatively just google a few pics. Its un-be-lievable.



Looks pretty benign.

.... of course it's a live feed at 4:40 AM local time (if I can figure out time zones).

EDIT: I can't. 3:40 AM.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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