The Great Flood Question
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08-05-2012, 02:40 PM
The Great Flood Question
So THE FLOOD wiped out every human being except Noah and his crew. I assume there are verifiable events involving humans before, during and after the event, right? I would think more advanced societies like China would have kept some pretty damn good records showing they didn't vanish during this time period, right? If so is this yet another reason to put this story in the BS column?

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08-05-2012, 03:05 PM
RE: The Great Flood Question
Regional flood.

Like I said before, even the Bible doesn't line up with a world-wide flood.

Why?

1) The Hebrew for the word "earth" (cufflink debated me on this, but I believe he even admitted that the word was not definitive).

2) The Nephilim survived the flood.

More and more theologians are starting to subscribe to a local flood nowadays.

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08-05-2012, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2012 03:19 PM by Thomas.)
RE: The Great Flood Question
The following is an excerpt from a manuscript:

God concluded that humanity had become corrupt and wicked and he was sorry that he had created man. Could it have been the release of a murderer who married his sister (Cain) with parole officer Yahweh warning everyone not to harm him? Once word gets round that god is soft on homicide and incest who knows what society will turn into. It’s simply confounding how an omniscient creator would have made a mistake and regretted his actions. As he was about to destroy all life on earth he noticed Noah. Again being omniscient why was he surprised by an honest man just when he was about to destroy all life? This surprise, remorse and mistake thing sounds a little more human than godlike. We see this behavior in the gods of Greece, Romans, Egyptians, but not the true god of the universe, Jesus’ dad.
So god gives Noah the basic plans for building the ark and tells him how he will bring a flood to kill off all life. Noah was 600 years old at this time, but only had three sons and no grandchildren. So a total of eight people including Noah’s wife and daughter-in-laws built a boat the size of a football field out of wood to hold all the animal of the world worth saving. They had only hand tools and simple levers to hoist beams.
A flood is an interesting weapon of mass destruction. The first thing that you think of is there must be some boats in existence. What stops people from getting in their boats when their house is flooded?
Noah was instructed to gather all of the animals of the world. We must assume that every animal was within walking distance of the ark, aside from the birds. Even the most geographically challenged scratch their heads over this one. The aftermath of this flood on indigenousness people and species in remote areas of the world must have been devastating. Take for example the contentment of Australia. All life must have been eradicated from such a worldwide flood. Unfortunately for the bible supporters there is no evidence to show that life was extinguished from the Australian contentment and archeological evidence of the aboriginal people dates back 40,000 years. No other continents had any evidence of a worldwide flood either. It must have been just local? But god did claim to kill off all life on the planet.
According to biblical scholars the flood occurred about 2348 BC. Several of the Egyptian pyramids were constructed before the flood, but have no watermarks. Neither have the Egyptians recorded any major floods in their regions of the world. Outside of the Hebrew bible there are no historical accounts or physical evidence to support a flood story, either locally or worldwide. But never mind all that, we have fossilized sea shells on mountain tops. That proves everything, if you have no idea of how plate tectonics causes mountain ranges. Physical possibility and evidence just gets in the way of a good bible story.
Back to the story, Noah and the inhabitants of the ark were the only creatures left alive. They were adrift for 150 days until god “remembered” Noah and he created a wind and to make the waters subside. I’m pleased to see that god remembered Noah. What if he forgot about Noah and the estimated 32,000 animals? Was god preoccupied with something else more important? It is a big universe. Perhaps he was destroying other worlds that he lost favor in. At 150 days you could see how 8 people would be just about done with caring for this many animals. Omaha's Henry Doorly Zoo is claimed to be the largest zoo in America with 12,800 species and has a staff of approximately 350 dedicated to feeding, cleaning and attending the medical needs of the animals. The food required is massive as well. It is nothing short of a miracle that Noah with his 7 family members fed and took care of the 32,000 animals for almost 7 months. It just goes to show you that with god, or a math challenged Old Testament author, all things are possible.
I’ve often been puzzled by where the waters came from and where they went to. Estimates are that to cover the entire earth with water it would have needed to rain 6 inches a minute for the 40 days and nights. Biblical scholars are all over this explanation. God had hidden water under the crust of the earth and after the flood put it back. Remember he made the wind blow the water off the (flat) earth.
When the waters started subsiding Noah sent out a dove on several occasions until finally the dove returned with an olive leaf in her mouth. Apparently an olive tree was growing on top of Mount Ararat before the flood, had survived the flood, and was sprouting fresh leaves.
The ground was dry under Noah’s boat, but he had not noticed. So god spoke to him and told him to leave the ark. The first thing Noah did was build an alter and sacrifice one of every “clean” animal to god. That’s exactly what I would have done. He took only 7 of each clean animal so the gene pool should be just fine with 3 males and 3 females. Just maybe the writers of Genesis didn’t have knowledge of the genetic material required for a species to self generate. In the early 1990s the Florida panther was down to 6 breeding females and many of the offspring carried lethal birth defects from inbreeding. Veterinarian Melody Roelke called it a genetic brick wall. The cat population would not recover without “outside” genetic material so 8 panthers were relocated from Texas giving the population the genetic diversity needed to reproduce successfully. In Noah’s case there was no outside genetic material so every animal on the ark would face the same genetic brick wall. But, god commanded them to go forth and multiple so they did. It must have been difficult for the Koalas to get back to Australia having those short legs. Maybe they caught a ride on the kangaroos?
After hitting land Noah gave a burnt offering to god and god called it a “soothing aroma”. Everyone likes a good barbecue and we are created in god’s image which means that god likes a good barbeque as well. God told Noah not to eat raw meat, but to cook it through well done. God likes his endangered animal meat well done.
Using the flood to kill off most of the planet was a one-time thing for god. He made a new covenant with Noah and the earth’s creatures. Using a rainbow he promised never to do the flood again. The next time he will burn the planet to a crisp. I’ve often wondered why the rainbow appears after a rain. It’s god telling us not to panic. He’s not trying to kill us off again, and I feel so much better.
Noah soon started farming and planted a vineyard. Tasting a few too many samples Noah got loaded one day and was staggering around naked in his tent. Noah’s son Ham saw him and got his two brothers. The brothers put a robe on Noah and he passed out. When Noah woke up, probably with a nice hangover, he was pissed at Ham for seeing him naked, so he cursed Ham and all of his decedents to serve the other two brothers. The curse of Ham has been used to justify the enslavement and discrimination against people of African descent as they are supposedly the decedents of Ham. According to genealogical studies based on DNA evidence the Hebrews and all Europeans are actually the descendents of the people of Africa. Genesis states that Noah lived another 300 years and dies around 900 years old.
...and millions of people believe all of this?

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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08-05-2012, 03:16 PM
RE: The Great Flood Question
(08-05-2012 02:40 PM)free2011 Wrote:  So THE FLOOD wiped out every human being except Noah and his crew. I assume there are verifiable events involving humans before, during and after the event, right? I would think more advanced societies like China would have kept some pretty damn good records showing they didn't vanish during this time period, right? If so is this yet another reason to put this story in the BS column?


It's not "bs". It's just mythology. Just like all the other flood myths, of the day. No big deal. And here's where they got it. (see Tablet 11). http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/meso...gilgamesh/

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08-05-2012, 03:22 PM
RE: The Great Flood Question
(08-05-2012 03:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ....
More and more theologians are starting to subscribe to a local flood nowadays.
They are? That seems.... well odd, unless they don't buy the bible as literal, then it wouldn't matter if they said the entire bible was just a story book and nothing more really (even though I'd wonder why they follow it).
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08-05-2012, 03:33 PM
RE: The Great Flood Question
(08-05-2012 03:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Regional flood.

Like I said before, even the Bible doesn't line up with a world-wide flood.

Why?

1) The Hebrew for the word "earth" (cufflink debated me on this, but I believe he even admitted that the word was not definitive).

2) The Nephilim survived the flood.

More and more theologians are starting to subscribe to a local flood nowadays.
Rendering the entire purpose of the flood moot. If it's local then one could simply swim or hop on a horse and buggy and ride outta town before the water got too deep.

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08-05-2012, 03:34 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2012 07:41 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Great Flood Question
(08-05-2012 03:22 PM)elemts Wrote:  They are? That seems.... well odd, unless they don't buy the bible as literal, then it wouldn't matter if they said the entire bible was just a story book and nothing more really (even though I'd wonder why they follow it).


I guarantee, you would not find ONE, (well maybe one), "theologian" or scripture scholar that takes it literally, at Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Tubingen, (Germany), or the U of Chicago. As Bart Ehrman, ex-fundie, PhD scripture scholar, now atheist, still professor, says, "if they only knew what gets taught in seminaries these days ".

"Jesus Interrupted", chapter 1, p. 12 "One of the most amazing and perplexing features of mainstream Christianity is that seminarians who learn the historical-critical method in their Bible classes appear to forget all about it, when it comes time for them to become pastors".

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08-05-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: The Great Flood Question
(08-05-2012 03:22 PM)elemts Wrote:  
(08-05-2012 03:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ....
More and more theologians are starting to subscribe to a local flood nowadays.
They are? That seems.... well odd, unless they don't buy the bible as literal, then it wouldn't matter if they said the entire bible was just a story book and nothing more really (even though I'd wonder why they follow it).
Well no... literalist will argue the definition of the word.

The Hebrew word for "earth". As you can tell, it hardly means the earth or the world in its entirety. In actually, Hebrew has a word for "the entire world". This begs the question as to why that word was never used in the flood account.

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08-05-2012, 03:59 PM
RE: The Great Flood Question
My issue with the whole flood story isn't the flood itself (worldwide definitely not possible)... it's the story of Noah.

I debated KC on this subject and we came to an agreement that the only way for the Noah story to be possible is if God lent a helping hand for matters such as inbreeding, mass fecal matter, etc...

At least I think that's how KC and I concluded.

My issue with God lending a helping hand is that heshe would have had to help throughout several steps of the process. If that's true, it's undeniably odd that heshe would choose to do that instead of snapping hisher deity fingers to get to the end result.

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08-05-2012, 04:12 PM
RE: The Great Flood Question
(08-05-2012 03:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-05-2012 03:22 PM)elemts Wrote:  They are? That seems.... well odd, unless they don't buy the bible as literal, then it wouldn't matter if they said the entire bible was just a story book and nothing more really (even though I'd wonder why they follow it).


I guaranteee, you would not find ONE, (well maybe one), "theologian" or scripture scholar that takes it literally, at Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Tubingen, (Germany), or the U of Chicago. As Bart Ehrman, ex-fundie, PhD scripture scholar, now atheist, still professor, says, "if they only knew what gets taught in seminaries these days ".

"Jesus Interrupted", chapter 1, p. 12 "One of the most amazing and perplexing features of mainstream Christianity is that seminarians who learn the historical-critical method in their Bible classes appear to forget all about it, when it comes time for them to become pastors".
(08-05-2012 03:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(08-05-2012 03:22 PM)elemts Wrote:  They are? That seems.... well odd, unless they don't buy the bible as literal, then it wouldn't matter if they said the entire bible was just a story book and nothing more really (even though I'd wonder why they follow it).
Well no... literalist will argue the definition of the word.

The Hebrew word for "earth". As you can tell, it hardly means the earth or the world in its entirety. In actually, Hebrew has a word for "the entire world". This begs the question as to why that word was never used in the flood account.
Both of the posts remind me of why I default to the Catholic bibles that I have. They put in images (such as how the Hebrews viewed the world.... here's a hint, it was flat with pillars, and big doors in a dome for floodwaters). I swear I remember someone saying, reading someone, something that said the bible being literal was just a recent thing anyway--that the context at the time was it was just stories (basically). Although I do find it fascinating how people go back and show what the words are in Hebrew that were used, and what words could have been used if they meant how we interpret it now.

Oh, like in my bible, it says the abyss is a "subterranean ocean", and even says part of the story (Genesis 9, something I just put it down) was a composite of other stories about it.
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