The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
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12-12-2016, 07:38 AM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
(12-12-2016 07:32 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  It can be demonstrated as to why people should NOT 'Ought' to throw others who bat for the same gender from roof tops.

Do you see how differently my word use in the above sentence is to your own innitial one?

Proscription vs prescription?

#sigh
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12-12-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
At work.

Laugh out load Big Grin
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12-12-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
(11-12-2016 04:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ...
Too many different dimensions for me to visualize and grok from one diagram. I'd probably split 'em up into multiple diagrams of the same basic flavor and stack 'em. Or maybe different overlays. Maybe cumulative overlays.

OK. I've simplified the idea just to clarify the elements which are objective and subjective.

The data points represent an opinion / stance / attitude / preference (I've decided that 'beliefs' are an input whereas 'action' would be the output (maybe)) for a given moral foundation (MF) for a given scope of empathy.

Still, at this stage, I'm looking to describe an individual's 'is' not their 'ought' as there is no element of 'justification' on the diagram as yet.

[Image: warm6d.jpg]


(12-12-2016 06:41 AM)Dom Wrote:  ...
I would use (or wish you had used) the colors given in the description of desires and beliefs throughout the diagram to make it easier to follow.
...

I think I did.

(12-12-2016 06:41 AM)Dom Wrote:  ...
And I can't read what is on the arrows, which seems a crucial piece of info.

The arrows represent the four main Darwinian drivers:
- Survival
- Sexual selection
- Kin Selection
- Reciprocity.

I'm working on a separate mapping of where these might have come from and how they become the desire-basis for our moral foundation... but this may take some time Sadcryface

(12-12-2016 06:05 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  The only thing you're describing with 'is' is behavior.

Certain cultures throw homosexuals off of rooftops. This is a fact. It is what 'is'.

We aren't talking about morality until we are talking about whether or not people 'ought' to throw homosexuals off of rooftops.

To say John was nice to Susan, but Bob was mean to Susan, in no way addresses morality.

DLJ, I think you are making the mistake of thinking that behavior you like (are attracted to) can be classified as moral, while behavior you dislike can be classified as immoral. The truth is, there is no such thing as moral or immoral behavior, and even if you make such a distinction, there is no evidence that one ought to behave in a certain way.

Does your diagram address the estimated 70 million psychopaths in the population? These people seem to not experience empathy in a way that is even remotely similar to the rest of the population.

If you ask me, your diagram is filled only with your own (and others who share similar views to yourself) biases, and it doesn't seem to tell us anything about moral and/or immoral behavior.

The behaviour I like or the behaviour one likes? The former, no; the latter, yes... kinda.

Young Bob is scolded for being mean to Susan and told it is wrong. Bob grows up to discover that being cruel to be kind is not always wrong.

While there are still non-nihilists around who label the rightness and wrongness of actions or beliefs as moral or immoral, I'll address the issue in those terms... as much as I think it's kinda silly so to do.

So yes, there is such a thing, in the same way that 'free-will' is real even though I think it's better described as 'moral competence'.

And, as I said in the OP, I'm leaving out 'ought' for now... not because it is not important but because I want to achieve some clarity on the 'is' first.

Regarding psychopaths and empathy, here's some food for thought ... mirror neurons and the ability to compartmentalise.

I have a piss poor ability to empathise (it's an Aspie thing) so for example, I will often take it for granted that my audience will know what I'm talking about. As a trainer I am on guard against this failing and try to imagine that my audience is morondog Tongue whose tail wags when fed pie charts, but I can empathise if I have personally been through a similar experience (i.e. actual not imagined/simulated).

So I guess I am saying that I can empathise with psychopaths. Blush

But I take your point that the diagram can only represent a snapshot of an individual's moral landscape and does not show change over time (or an empathy on/off switch).

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12-12-2016, 08:28 PM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
(12-12-2016 10:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(11-12-2016 04:49 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  ...
Too many different dimensions for me to visualize and grok from one diagram. I'd probably split 'em up into multiple diagrams of the same basic flavor and stack 'em. Or maybe different overlays. Maybe cumulative overlays.

OK. I've simplified the idea just to clarify the elements which are objective and subjective.

Better but I think the perspective view introduces what Tufte calls "chartjunk". Stacked histograms would be clearer I think.

#sigh
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13-12-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
(12-12-2016 08:28 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 10:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  OK. I've simplified the idea just to clarify the elements which are objective and subjective.

Better but I think the perspective view introduces what Tufte calls "chartjunk". Stacked histograms would be clearer I think.

OK, I'll give it a go. I can see the benefit of using that thinking-tool to describe the chart but I have a feeling that a graphic of an individual's moral position will look a bit like this in the end.

[Image: 220px-Rayleigh-Taylor_instability.jpg]


Can't you just see the benefit of this kind of mapping for matching people on a dating site or, if done at the superstructure level of culture, for deciding on the exit strategy after the up-coming invasions of Iran and China?

Dodgy

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13-12-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
It looks like a super awesome lasagna! ^_^

NOT at work... atm... (¬_¬)
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14-12-2016, 01:42 AM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
(13-12-2016 10:24 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  It looks like a super awesome lasagna! ^_^

NOT at work... atm... (¬_¬)

LIAR!
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Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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18-12-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
(12-12-2016 10:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  ...
The arrows represent the four main Darwinian drivers:
- Survival
- Sexual selection
- Kin Selection
- Reciprocity.

I'm working on a separate mapping of where these might have come from and how they become the desire-basis for our moral foundation... but this may take some time Sadcryface
...

I was right. Starting from the Big Bang, it took me 6 days to create them. And the on the 7th day...

I'll add some explanatory text later (thanks to Saint Evil for helping me develop that).

[Image: aw013.jpg]

[Image: m8fbpx.jpg]

For those who enjoy irony ... I met with a biochemist today who wanted to see the top one and she wasn't completely unimpressed. But she asked why I hadn't done the bottom one as a 3D landscape. "Wot, like this lasagna?" I said.

Weeping

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18-12-2016, 01:21 PM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
Laugh out load Did you slip a pic of Earmuffs in there?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-12-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: The Great Morality Diagrammatic Diatribe
(18-12-2016 01:21 PM)morondog Wrote:  Laugh out load Did you slip a pic of Earmuffs in there?

Yup. As a metaphor for a dystopian nightmare ... the end of the world as we know it.

Angel

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