The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
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31-07-2012, 09:40 AM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 09:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  the precise translation just isn't the issue.

Is that why Atheists go to extremes to criticize the texts? because the translation isn't the issue?
Why go to certain measures just to be a skeptic about the history of religion if you don't actually care what the translation is?

I, like yourself, despise much of the same history of religion. The difference?
The difference is that by what you state there, you couldn't care less that those in history are actually mistranslating the text, and I do care.
All this hate for religion that comes from the skeptics side is certainly warranted. But when they say they don't care what is actually meant by the text - I take back what I say about warranted.

Expected.

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31-07-2012, 09:43 AM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 09:35 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-07-2012 09:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  Seriously, KC, it just doesn't matter.

We don't have the originals, we can use textual analyses to approximate them.
In the end, atheists see it as a book of superstition and fables and the precise translation just isn't the issue.

It is if it's blatantly mistranslated.

No, it doesn't much matter to those who view it as fiction.
It only matters insofar as literary criticism and scholarship, not in substance.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-07-2012, 09:50 AM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 09:40 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(31-07-2012 09:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  the precise translation just isn't the issue.

Is that why Atheists go to extremes to criticize the texts? because the translation isn't the issue?
Why go to certain measures just to be a skeptic about the history of religion if you don't actually care what the translation is?

I, like yourself, despise much of the same history of religion. The difference?
The difference is that by what you state there, you couldn't care less that those in history are actually mistranslating the text, and I do care.
All this hate for religion that comes from the skeptics side is certainly warranted. But when they say they don't care what is actually meant by the text - I take back what I say about warranted.

Expected.

I don't understand your last bit:
Quote:I take back what I say about warranted.

Expected.
There are many translations of the Bible and many are used by theists in argument. Typically, I will point out the errors of fact (geographical, historical, astronomical, etc.) or the internal inconsistencies of whatever translation they want to use. They are all about equally flawed at that level.
There are a few that are just blatant falsifications like the Aryan Bible; we can ignore those.
I am pointing out that KC's insistence on precise (by his definitions) translation is a red herring. We don't have the original texts - all translations are approximations and are suspect.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-07-2012, 11:48 AM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 09:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  a few that are just blatant falsifications like the Aryan Bible; we can ignore those.
I am pointing out that KC's insistence on precise (by his definitions) translation is a red herring. We don't have the original texts - all translations are approximations and are suspect.

Ok, well as far as red herring in this situation, I guess you're right about that.
My point was unfortunately a touch off topic since I didn't understand the situation here.

But, just for clarification of what I was saying just in case anyone wanted to comment on it -

Critics often point fingers in the wrong direction because of similar situations.
For example;
If something is written with peace and kindness in mind, and the reader responds with hatred and war, I don't want to blame the religion, I want to blame the person.
Why take blame away from the person? Because you have something against the religion. And that's bias.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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31-07-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 09:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-07-2012 09:40 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Is that why Atheists go to extremes to criticize the texts? because the translation isn't the issue?
Why go to certain measures just to be a skeptic about the history of religion if you don't actually care what the translation is?

I, like yourself, despise much of the same history of religion. The difference?
The difference is that by what you state there, you couldn't care less that those in history are actually mistranslating the text, and I do care.
All this hate for religion that comes from the skeptics side is certainly warranted. But when they say they don't care what is actually meant by the text - I take back what I say about warranted.

Expected.

I don't understand your last bit:
Quote:I take back what I say about warranted.

Expected.
There are many translations of the Bible and many are used by theists in argument. Typically, I will point out the errors of fact (geographical, historical, astronomical, etc.) or the internal inconsistencies of whatever translation they want to use. They are all about equally flawed at that level.
There are a few that are just blatant falsifications like the Aryan Bible; we can ignore those.
I am pointing out that KC's insistence on precise (by his definitions) translation is a red herring. We don't have the original texts - all translations are approximations and are suspect.

But, the ridicule was because of the texts. It's not a red herring. The verse mentioned was used to highlight the perceived inaccuracies in the Bible to an ludicrous degree.

All I pointed out was that the subject of ridicule (the unicorn), was incorrectly translated. If you replace the word with the correct word (wild ox), then no one would look twice at it.

In all the texts, that word is used. Why it was translated as "unicorn" in the KJV, I have no idea. It is blatantly wrong, though.

I'm saying if someone is going to ridicule the texts because of the verbiage, then you need to know what the verbiage says and be corrected if you are wrong.

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31-07-2012, 12:03 PM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 11:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(31-07-2012 09:50 AM)Chas Wrote:  I don't understand your last bit:
There are many translations of the Bible and many are used by theists in argument. Typically, I will point out the errors of fact (geographical, historical, astronomical, etc.) or the internal inconsistencies of whatever translation they want to use. They are all about equally flawed at that level.
There are a few that are just blatant falsifications like the Aryan Bible; we can ignore those.
I am pointing out that KC's insistence on precise (by his definitions) translation is a red herring. We don't have the original texts - all translations are approximations and are suspect.

But, the ridicule was because of the texts. It's not a red herring. The verse mentioned was used to highlight the perceived inaccuracies in the Bible to an ludicrous degree.

All I pointed out was that the subject of ridicule (the unicorn), was incorrectly translated. If you replace the word with the correct word (wild ox), then no one would look twice at it.

In all the texts, that word is used. Why it was translated as "unicorn" in the KJV, I have no idea. It is blatantly wrong, though.

I'm saying if someone is going to ridicule the texts because of the verbiage, then you need to know what the verbiage says and be corrected if you are wrong.

The original post has nothing about unicorns.

But, yes, that mistranslation is important in that narrow sense. However, lots of other mythical beasts appear in the Bible for our ridicule.
And witches, too.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-07-2012, 12:08 PM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 11:48 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  But, just for clarification of what I was saying just in case anyone wanted to comment on it -

Critics often point fingers in the wrong direction because of similar situations.
For example;
If something is written with peace and kindness in mind, and the reader responds with hatred and war, I don't want to blame the religion, I want to blame the person.
Why take blame away from the person? Because you have something against the religion. And that's bias.
The Old Testament is full of violence, genocide and hatred, no matter how you want to twist it. In this example, whether god's people had the strength of a unicorn and then commited an atrocity or the strength of a wild ox and commited an atrocity is completely irrelevant.

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31-07-2012, 12:33 PM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(30-07-2012 08:56 PM)elemts Wrote:  I find the greatest lie ever told to be "hey, there's a deity, and it needs you to worship it, oh and money, it needs money, a certain percent, and if you don't it's going to torture you forever"


Of course.... isn't that list one that gets the phrase "oh but that's the OLD testament! It's all about the NEW testament now! The old testament is about god's harshness to guide people, the new testament is about god's love and is all you need to worry about" or even "That's the OLD testament, it only applied to the Jews."

So the 10 commandments only apply to Jews? Interesting.....

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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31-07-2012, 12:39 PM
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 12:33 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(30-07-2012 08:56 PM)elemts Wrote:  I find the greatest lie ever told to be "hey, there's a deity, and it needs you to worship it, oh and money, it needs money, a certain percent, and if you don't it's going to torture you forever"


Of course.... isn't that list one that gets the phrase "oh but that's the OLD testament! It's all about the NEW testament now! The old testament is about god's harshness to guide people, the new testament is about god's love and is all you need to worry about" or even "That's the OLD testament, it only applied to the Jews."


So the 10 commandments only apply to Jews? Interesting.....

Picking and choosing--keeping religions alive since the dawn of reason.
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31-07-2012, 02:45 PM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2012 02:50 PM by kim.)
RE: The Greatest Lie Ever Told: God Loves Everyone
(31-07-2012 11:55 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  But, the ridicule was because of the texts. It's not a red herring. The verse mentioned was used to highlight the perceived inaccuracies in the Bible to an ludicrous degree.

All I pointed out was that the subject of ridicule (the unicorn), was incorrectly translated. If you replace the word with the correct word (wild ox), then no one would look twice at it.

In all the texts, that word is used. Why it was translated as "unicorn" in the KJV, I have no idea. It is blatantly wrong, though.

I'm saying if someone is going to ridicule the texts because of the verbiage, then you need to know what the verbiage says and be corrected if you are wrong.

I wasn't ridiculing anything. I love Rhinos.
As for translation... I don't give a fuck about unicorns, but I do know a thing or two about Rhinos.

Rhinos are often specifically referred to as cows, calves, and bulls. However, they are actually more related to the horse. Like the horse, they are are a an odd-toed ungulate mammal. But they have no knees... this is their mystery. Actually, I guess it's not much of a mystery; I just think it makes them walk and run in a really cute way. Rhinoceros; I think they are beautiful.

Frankly, if one line of this goofy-ass story can't decide if some obscure character needs to be described as a horse or an ox, fuck it - I'm going with Rhino. Dodgy

Maybe you shouldn't be so picky Kingsy... mistranslation is more than likely how this shit got so spread around. Wink

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