The Gun Thread
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18-08-2013, 03:11 AM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2013 03:24 AM by Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver.)
RE: The Gun Thread
Quote:You like guns and grenade launchers. I know people that have said they wouldn't let their kids go to someone's house if they had a gun, let alone "evil assault rifles" and grenades wouldn't even cross their mind. These are normal people, in Texas not Massachusetts. What you might think of as normal isn't necessarily normal to the rest of the population.

Well that's absolutely pointless and stupid. Yes, I've met these assholes as well and the whole lot of them are stupid, hippy, liberal douches who won't let their kids play with squirt guns and think that the Boy Scouts are training future killers and mall shooters because they teach an 8 year old how to shoot a .22 at camp. If you won't let your kids play with mine because I have a gun, I feel sorry for the kid who has to live with such a brainwashed and delusional parent. Risk-wise, I hope they don't sent their kids over to a home with a swimming pool as their child is 8x more likely to drown in it than be injured or killed by an accidental gunshot wound.

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18-08-2013, 08:39 AM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2013 08:43 AM by Azaraith.)
Re: RE: The Gun Thread
(18-08-2013 03:11 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  
Quote:You like guns and grenade launchers. I know people that have said they wouldn't let their kids go to someone's house if they had a gun, let alone "evil assault rifles" and grenades wouldn't even cross their mind. These are normal people, in Texas not Massachusetts. What you might think of as normal isn't necessarily normal to the rest of the population.

Well that's absolutely pointless and stupid. Yes, I've met these assholes as well and the whole lot of them are stupid, hippy, liberal douches who won't let their kids play with squirt guns and think that the Boy Scouts are training future killers and mall shooters because they teach an 8 year old how to shoot a .22 at camp. If you won't let your kids play with mine because I have a gun, I feel sorry for the kid who has to live with such a brainwashed and delusional parent. Risk-wise, I hope they don't sent their kids over to a home with a swimming pool as their child is 8x more likely to drown in it than be injured or killed by an accidental gunshot wound.

Sounding just like a fundamentalist there. Be careful not to judge people for having a different opinion than you, they've got just as much right to avoid guns as you do to own them. They also aren't at all stupid, just not comfortable with guns. Liberal isn't an insult, many if not most atheists are liberal - given that a lot of conservative ideals are driven by religion. I was conservative until I realized how many conservative policies are rooted in ignorance and naive views of the world (such as that corporations would "self regulate" and solve climate change / pollution on their own, or that a completely free market system would allow for optimal competition and a fair society).

Brainwashed and delusional could apply just as well to you if you think the risk isn't real and that guns are necessary. The risks faced by homeowners and civilians are extremely exaggerated by the right in the gun debate, as if a family isn't safe unless a 12 gauge is kept on hand at all times. Fact is, statistically the danger is far from significant. Given a bad neighborhood and proper training that balance switches, but in a suburb or other peaceful area the risk of home invasion is low enough that keeping a loaded gun on hand is paranoia.

Far more kids swim in a pool than are around guns. Most gun owners are responsible, but many aren't. Hard to tell unless you know them very well. Sometimes otherwise "responsible" owners have also killed their kids by having accidents with the firearm, only takes one lapse in judgment or moment of carelessness. A parent absolutely has a right to avoid letting their kids around guns supervised by a person they don't know like family, that may or may not treat guns like what they are (weapons, with due respect and caution) and not like so many do (like toys).

You're also falling prey to a false equivalence fallacy - just because one activity might be risky doesn't mean the other risky activity is fine.

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18-08-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: The Gun Thread
(18-08-2013 03:11 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Well that's absolutely pointless and stupid. Yes, I've met these assholes as well and the whole lot of them are stupid, hippy, liberal douches who won't let their kids play with squirt guns and think that the Boy Scouts are training future killers and mall shooters because they teach an 8 year old how to shoot a .22 at camp. If you won't let your kids play with mine because I have a gun, I feel sorry for the kid who has to live with such a brainwashed and delusional parent. Risk-wise, I hope they don't sent their kids over to a home with a swimming pool as their child is 8x more likely to drown in it than be injured or killed by an accidental gunshot wound.

Quote:Sounding just like a fundamentalist there.


I care less and less about your opinion on this with every one of these kinds of comments.

Quote:Be careful not to judge people for having a different opinion than you, they've got just as much right to avoid guns as you do to own them.


Well no shit, Sherlock. And I'll make that kind of judgment call as their concerns are illogical and unwarranted. The risk of dying from an accidental gunshot wound is somewhere on the level of being struck by lightning - about 40 or so kids a year. This paranoid fear of their kids being shot at a friends house whose parent own guns is so slim that it's simply not warranted to worry about. Again they're at a far higher risk of being hit by a car while they travel to and from said friends house.

Quote:They also aren't at all stupid, just not comfortable with guns.

And most have never seen or shot guns and have no idea what they are talking about. They also tend to be the types who think that handling a gun turns them into a murderer.

The major risk of gun death to a person is 1) suicide by gunshot and 2) murder. Accidents involving guns are so low, they're concern is unwarranted. If you want to accident proof your kids with guns, 1) let them handle and shoot a gun under close adult supervision using safe firearms practices and 2) teach them to immediately leave the company of anyone not exercising safe firearms handling in their immediate presence.

Quote:Liberal isn't an insult, many if not most atheists are liberal


Now on the subject of false equivalencies........

Quote:- given that a lot of conservative ideals are driven by religion. I was conservative until I realized how many conservative policies are rooted in ignorance and naive views of the world (such as that corporations would "self regulate" and solve climate change / pollution on their own, or that a completely free market system would allow for optimal competition and a fair society).

Strange. Nowhere in the bible does it talk about gun ownership. Also I can make the argument that the Bible and Jesus promote socialism.

Quote:Brainwashed and delusional could apply just as well to you if you think the risk isn't real and that guns are necessary.


Risk of death from accidental gunshot wound is trivial, as I have said before. Also I prefer to have and use guns for personal defense. I have over thirty years experience using and shooting them and am quite a competent marksman. Therefore they are a tremendous asset to me in a life threatening emergency.

Quote:The risks faced by homeowners and civilians are extremely exaggerated by the right in the gun debate, as if a family isn't safe unless a 12 gauge is kept on hand at all times. Fact is, statistically the danger is far from significant.


There were over 200,000 home invasions in the US alone last year and about 40 children were accidentally killed with guns. You were saying?

Quote:Given a bad neighborhood and proper training that balance switches, but in a suburb or other peaceful area the risk of home invasion is low enough that keeping a loaded gun on hand is paranoia.

By no means do I solely base my security on a gun alone. I live in a very safe neighbor and 3 people on the block who are police officers. All of my neighbors and I know each other and look out for each other. I also have a 105lb German Shepherd dog who doesn't take kindly to intruders. If all else fails, yes, I do own guns and am fully prepared to hold court in the street. I do hope that a dangerous situation can be resolved quickly with the perpetrator going to jail rather than the morgue. But if you want to break into my house and threaten my life, in that game I WILL be the hound and not the hydrant.

Quote:Far more kids swim in a pool than are around guns. Most gun owners are responsible, but many aren't. Hard to tell unless you know them very well.

Approx 80 million adults in the US legally own guns - that's about 1 in 3 people living in the US. Conversely, there are about 10 million swimming pools in the US.
Quote:Sometimes otherwise "responsible" owners have also killed their kids by having accidents with the firearm, only takes one lapse in judgment or moment of carelessness.

I don't care. The risk of that is so low, it's not ever worth worrying about.

Quote:A parent absolutely has a right to avoid letting their kids around guns supervised by a person they don't know like family, that may or may not treat guns like what they are (weapons, with due respect and caution) and not like so many do (like toys).

Yeah they do. I still feel sorry for their child.

Quote:You're also falling prey to a false equivalence fallacy - just because one activity might be risky doesn't mean the other risky activity is fine.

I've already had this conversation about risk in this situation.

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18-08-2013, 11:53 AM
RE: The Gun Thread
(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I care less and less about your opinion on this with every one of these kinds of comments.

Like I care. You'd be mistaken to think I cared about yours in the first place. Ignorance is bliss and you seem pretty happy.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Well no shit, Sherlock. And I'll make that kind of judgment call as their concerns are illogical and unwarranted. The risk of dying from an accidental gunshot wound is somewhere on the level of being struck by lightning - about 40 or so kids a year. This paranoid fear of their kids being shot at a friends house whose parent own guns is so slim that it's simply not warranted to worry about. Again they're at a far higher risk of being hit by a car while they travel to and from said friends house.

Pulling stats out of your ass now? You're being very demeaning towards people simply for not being comfortable with guns. You don't have that right, it's downright arrogant of you to insult people (with the laughably smug labeling them as liberals as if it's an insult, despite not knowing anything about them).

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  And most have never seen or shot guns and have no idea what they are talking about. They also tend to be the types who think that handling a gun turns them into a murderer.

Again, you're talking out of complete ignorance here. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. They've seen guns, just don't like them. Not everyone that's not a gun-loving nutter like you is loony and thinks guns transform people into murderers.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  The major risk of gun death to a person is 1) suicide by gunshot and 2) murder. Accidents involving guns are so low, they're concern is unwarranted. If you want to accident proof your kids with guns, 1) let them handle and shoot a gun under close adult supervision using safe firearms practices and 2) teach them to immediately leave the company of anyone not exercising safe firearms handling in their immediate presence.

Or skip both and don't put them in the presence of guns. Kids don't need to be taught about guns except that they're not toys and not to play with them and to leave if people are mishandling them. It's simpler to avoid gun owners altogether than try to determine if someone's a safe or unsafe owner - people will swear up and down that they're safe owners even if they don't practice gun safety rigorously. Knowing how to shoot a gun isn't a universally necessary skill. Kids need to know what to do if they are around them (or more precisely, what not to do), but not shooting them.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Now on the subject of false equivalencies........

Based on statistics, that's true. And you're completely off-base by using liberal as a slur, I could use conservative as a slur too, but they're just political positions. I was a bit lazy, but wasn't saying that liberal isn't a slur because most atheists are liberal, I was saying that liberal isn't a slur and that you're insulting many here (or at least many atheists) by treating it as a slur.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Strange. Nowhere in the bible does it talk about gun ownership. Also I can make the argument that the Bible and Jesus promote socialism.

Point was that many atheists turn from conservative to liberal when they deconvert since many of their conservative beliefs were based on religion. This is a tangent though, you could twist the Bible to say whatever the fuck you wanted...

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Risk of death from accidental gunshot wound is trivial, as I have said before. Also I prefer to have and use guns for personal defense. I have over thirty years experience using and shooting them and am quite a competent marksman. Therefore they are a tremendous asset to me in a life threatening emergency.

They're not always an asset in an emergency. People have had their guns taken from them and gotten killed with their own gun, inside of 10-15ft someone that's larger than you or wielding a blunt weapon will be able to close the distance and kill you before you can use that gun. Using your brain to avoid dangerous situations is far more helpful than carrying around your .44 mag. As far as the risk of an accidental gunshot is concerned, the risk is real enough that some are concerned about it. They've got a right to be as much as you've got a right to be concerned about home invasions, at least in any safe neighborhood as you describe.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  There were over 200,000 home invasions in the US alone last year and about 40 children were accidentally killed with guns. You were saying?

That number is pure unadulterated bullshit. How do I know? No one records statistics for home invasions, the only sites that mention it are right-wing paranoia-mongering sites. Both risks are low, but they're not the only ones that are a bit paranoid. You're paranoid too, just a different boogey man.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  By no means do I solely base my security on a gun alone. I live in a very safe neighbor and 3 people on the block who are police officers. All of my neighbors and I know each other and look out for each other. I also have a 105lb German Shepherd dog who doesn't take kindly to intruders. If all else fails, yes, I do own guns and am fully prepared to hold court in the street. I do hope that a dangerous situation can be resolved quickly with the perpetrator going to jail rather than the morgue. But if you want to break into my house and threaten my life, in that game I WILL be the hound and not the hydrant.

Most situations where a burglar breaks into a house they're thinking it's unoccupied and will run if they see someone, armed or not. The situations where they decide to go after you are very rare and mostly the craziest of them. The dog alone would probably ward off most, but if they want in bad enough they'll just toss over a poisoned steak and wait and if that doesn't work a bat will disable a dog easily enough. The number of burglars that are crazy enough to try are ridiculously low - on the order of getting struck by lightning. On that count, you're as paranoid as any anti-gun parent.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Approx 80 million adults in the US legally own guns - that's about 1 in 3 people living in the US. Conversely, there are about 10 million swimming pools in the US.

There are 300m people in the US, not 240m. Anyway, I'm pretty sure every kid doesn't have a pool to themselves, usually there's at least 10-15 kids per pool and they're in the pool maybe a couple days per week, 3-5 months out of the year. The number of kids near adults with guns in a home is certainly lower than 80m, likely far lower.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  I don't care. The risk of that is so low, it's not ever worth worrying about.

Same with worrying about a very determined burglar breaking into your home and killing your family, yet you're still paranoid enough about that to own guns for that purpose.

(18-08-2013 10:36 AM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  Yeah they do. I still feel sorry for their child.

I feel sorry for you, living in constant fear like you must if you really believe those guns are necessary. Fact is, they're not - you'd be fine without them, there's far more out there to worry about and being paranoid isn't worth the worry. The doomsday preppers are just one step ahead of you (assuming you aren't *that* nutty).
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18-08-2013, 12:07 PM
RE: The Gun Thread
Can I just say that this isn't the politics section? If you want to debate laws, there a probably a dozen threads on the subject.

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18-08-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: The Gun Thread
Yeah, it's kinda pointless bickering, though I've not said anything about laws. I was just set off by his ignorant insulting of people he doesn't know with this comment:

Quote:I've met these assholes as well and the whole lot of them are stupid, hippy, liberal douches who won't let their kids play with squirt guns and think that the Boy Scouts are training future killers and mall shooters because they teach an 8 year old how to shoot a .22 at camp.

That pissed me off since I know these people and don't consider them "assholes", "stupid", "hippy" or "douches" and they're not necessarily liberal - we don't talk politics often, so I'm not sure. Carlos is certainly in no position to say and frankly, using "liberal" as a slur is extremely arrogant and narrow-minded - that pissed me off too.
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18-08-2013, 01:09 PM
RE: The Gun Thread
(18-08-2013 12:16 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Yeah, it's kinda pointless bickering, though I've not said anything about laws. I was just set off by his ignorant insulting of people he doesn't know with this comment:

Quote:I've met these assholes as well and the whole lot of them are stupid, hippy, liberal douches who won't let their kids play with squirt guns and think that the Boy Scouts are training future killers and mall shooters because they teach an 8 year old how to shoot a .22 at camp.

That pissed me off since I know these people and don't consider them "assholes", "stupid", "hippy" or "douches" and they're not necessarily liberal - we don't talk politics often, so I'm not sure. Carlos is certainly in no position to say and frankly, using "liberal" as a slur is extremely arrogant and narrow-minded - that pissed me off too.

Actually I DO know these people. And in every case they fit that description. A hippy liberal douche that thinks access to guns is what causes crime and if we banned guns, gun crime and violent crime would virtually disappear. It's the tiresome 'you're-too-stupid-to-handle-it-properly-so-we-have-to-take-the-sharp-objects-away-from-you mentality. And, yes it is a liberal thing because I have never encountered this shit from conservatives as ignorant as they may be on other subjects. Liberals have 2 major problems IMO: They have an overprotective mother complex and never met a regulation they didn't like. In this case, it's guns, violence, property crime and the law - subjects they know jack shit on and think their 'feelings' on trump reality then force this crap on everyone else with legislation and legal torts.

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18-08-2013, 01:17 PM
RE: The Gun Thread
Ok, I'll just say it now: fuck off Carlos. You don't know them, unless you're somehow someone I know and you know who I am. You're making baseless assumptions out of your ignorance.

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18-08-2013, 01:22 PM
RE: The Gun Thread
(18-08-2013 01:17 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Ok, I'll just say it now: fuck off Carlos. You don't know them, unless you're somehow someone I know and you know who I am. You're making baseless assumptions out of your ignorance.

Yeah, fuck you too.

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18-08-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: The Gun Thread
And this is why I suggested some people head on over to the politics section...

Rolleyes

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