The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
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21-10-2012, 01:02 AM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
I meant the questions together, as in, answering the questions together creates a paradox. I didn't mean that they were individually unanswerable.

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21-10-2012, 01:03 AM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
Actually, I may have misread.

Sec.

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21-10-2012, 01:07 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 01:13 AM by TheJackal.)
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
Quote:If omnipotence is to be obeyed, then the paradox can simply not exist - as the paradox itself is impossible - if omnipotence is retained.

Firstly, omnipotence is a logical self-refuting fallacy. And again, same question can apply.. What is omnipotence without existence? Well, non-existent.. And btw, I wrote an article concerning that subject here:

Paradoxal Atrributes of GOD: Victims of Self-refutation

Abstract:
Quote:If an omniscient entity could always "know" how to create new information it doesn't already know, its never "omniscient", and never will be or could be.. This becomes a problem of infinite egress that invalidates the premise of being "omniscient". It even invalidates "omnipotence" because it could never make itself "omniscient" if it could infinitely create new information it doesn't already know. Thus the premises by their nature self-collapse, and are regarded in such a paradox as impossible concepts, or concepts to which are self-refuting.
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21-10-2012, 01:09 AM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:02 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I meant the questions together, as in, answering the questions together creates a paradox. I didn't mean that they were individually unanswerable.

That was not the context of the questions.. Smile
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21-10-2012, 01:12 AM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
Okay, I was sorta right the first time.

The first question is paradoxical in regards to God. See what I said about the GRP.

As far as the second question goes:

The second question is under the premise that God is subjugated to existence; that is, if there was no existence, there would be no God.

Again, this is a paradox to God's infinite natures. If God was/is omnipresent, then He's always existed, which subjugates existence. God cannot be passive in any role; He must be active, so the lack of existence is not a question.

So, if existence is subjugated by God, He controls things that exist. So, in order for existence to be, it must first be done by God.

So yeah, I was right. Your second question redefines one of God's characteristics, and makes Him subject to something instead of being sovereign.

In Christian theology, this cannot be.

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21-10-2012, 01:23 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 01:45 AM by TheJackal.)
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Okay, I was sorta right the first time.

The first question is paradoxical in regards to God. See what I said about the GRP.

As far as the second question goes:

The second question is under the premise that God is subjugated to existence; that is, if there was no existence, there would be no God.

Which would be correct..

Quote:Again, this is a paradox to God's infinite natures. If God was/is omnipresent, then He's always existed, which subjugates existence. God cannot be passive in any role; He must be active, so the lack of existence is not a question.

You just called everyone here GOD.. That is by definition Pantheism, or at best solipsistic Pantheism while ignoring that the conscious state itself can not exist without cause, or without first the inertia of information. Btw, if your GOD is infinite and omnipresent:

Where do I exist, and what boundaries separate your GOD from being who I am? Hence, you can't just use Omni's and not think of their consequences... Your are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Quote:So, if existence is subjugated by God, He controls things that exist. So, in order for existence to be, it must first be done by God.

Sorry you can not preexist existence, or create existence so yourself can exist. You statement here is a self-refuting argument. And again, that would just be existence doing its thing as it's irrelevant if we come from conscious processes, unconscious processes, or a combination of both. But since a conscious state can't exist without first the inertia of information or a complex adaptive system with feedback to form the foundation and structure of a cognitive system, the best answer possible is through both unconscious and conscious processes. Hence information is higher on the pecking order that a conscious entity that is slave to require it to even know itself exists, or to be conscious at all.. Hence, you are forcing me unnecessarily to go into information science and theory. But I did write a nice little ABC list for fun to express that:

A: There can be no choice, or decision made without information
B: There can be no consciousness or awareness without information, or the inertia of
C: One can not have knowledge without information
D: One can not do anything without information
E: One can not exist without informational value
F: One can not think without information
G: One can not even know one's self exists without information
H: One can not reply, respond, or react without information
I: There can be no "I" without the information that gives I an Identity.
J: There can be no morals, ethics, or laws without information
K: One can not have or express emotions, or feelings without information
L: One can not have experiences, or experience anything at all without information
M: One can not have a place to exist in order to be existent without informational capacity, structure, system, or value.
N: One can not Create, or Design anything without information
O: One can not have the ability to process things without information
P: Intelligence can not exist without information to apply
Q: No system, or process can exist without information
R: Cause and effect can not exist without information
S: Logic can not exist without information
T: Reason can not exist or things can not have a reason / purpose without information
U: There can be no meaning without information
V: There can be no value without information
W: There can be no capacity without informational value
Y: There can be no complexity without informational structure
Z: One can not convey, send, or express a message without information
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21-10-2012, 01:31 AM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
Ok.. so for those that want to play the omni or GOD attribute argument.. Here we GO:

St John of Damascus, The Fount of Knowledge:

Abstract 1:

Quote: "The uncreate, the unoriginate, the immortal, the boundless, the eternal, the immaterial, the good, the creative, the just, the enlightening, the unchangeable, the passionless, the uncircumscribed, the uncontained, the unlimited, the indefinable, the invisible, the inconceivable, the wanting nothing, the having absolute power and authority, the life-giving, the almighty, the infinitely powerful, the sanctifying and communicating, the containing and sustaining all things, and the providing for all all these and the like He possesses by His nature. They are not received from any other source; on the contrary, it is His nature that communicates all good to His own creatures in accordance with the capacity of each."

Abstract 2:

Quote: "And yet again, there is His knowing of all things by a simple act of knowing. And there is His distinctly seeing with His divine, all-seeing, and immaterial eye all things at once"



In overview of the abstracts above, we can abstract the following attributes and properties given to this supposed theorized entity. And they are listed as fallows:

Boundless
Uncontained
Unlimited
Omnipresent
The containing and sustaining of all things
Omniscient
Immaterial
Timeless

These eight attributes have been defended by many theologians and philosophers such as Richard Swinburn, William Craig and Donald Wacome [18][19][20] . Though as defended by those above, these attributes are often questioned by others[21]

A boundless GOD? Can a boundless GOD be boundless if you are to claim all of us to be separate individuals? What boundaries lie between GOD being me, and not being me?
If he is uncontained, then what separates him from me? This to which begs the question: Is this God even in existence?
If he's without limits, what limits define GOD apart from who I am?..
If he is omnipresent, where do I exist?
If he contains and sustains all things, would he not be existence itself? Thus am I, and everyone else here not the conscious representations of god, or GOD himself?
If he is Omniscient and knows infinitely everything to which is knowable, would he not know me in every infinitely knowable way to where he himself would literally be I, me, or who I am in every infinitely knowable way?
If he is immaterial, would he not be made of nothing? Thus how does nothing exist as a person, place, or thing? How does nothing as a substance be the property value of something? How does nothing contain and sustain informational value?
If this God is timeless, does this God exist now?
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21-10-2012, 01:37 AM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 01:45 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
Nope. first of all, you have not defined existence. Secondly, you do not get to define words, for a discussion, that is meaningful, if they have a new meaning unless we, a priori, agree what they mean. I have not agreed that I am a "part" (of an all encompassing) "existence", and you have not demonstrated it, just declared it. You cannot also define "existence" without invoking a temporal concept. Also "existence" in the way you are using it is the Reification Fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_%28fallacy%29

But you CAN have Existence without Causality, and for Causality to exist, Causality MUST be caused. THAT is Infinite Regression. The ideas of "existence and non-existence, and anything, or nothing or everything that logically flows from that IS a "structure". THAT structure did not just "happen". If Existence can be defined, it has a "structure" which it could not cause itself.

Also those ideas are ONLY in YOUR brain, because matter exists, and works according to the structure of atoms and molecules. Apart from that you have no proof there is anything, other than what we have evidence for. Our brains talking is 100% dependent on matter.

There is no "static state" of existence. Nothing is "static" that exists. Name ONE thing that is static. There is no "static state" in science, except maybe on a "macro" level. There is nothing which exists which does not possess energy. E=MC^2. That is not "static energy".

"Technically speaking, me and you are literally existence having a discussion with itself."
We are not. We are two brains, made of matter, having a discussion.

If god "exists" then god doesn't "not exist". THAT is structure, and god is only part of the structure, and is dependent ON the structure, (existence vs nonexistence).

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21-10-2012, 01:40 AM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:23 AM)TheJackal Wrote:  You just called everyone here GOD.. That is by definition Pantheism,

Nah. I didn't say that. Pantheism is everything equates to God. Everything, as one, is God.

I said the other way around. God creates things, so in a sense, somethings are a part of God; but they aren't not God. They have limits; boundaries. This cannot be God.

Quote:or at best solipsistic Pantheism while ignoring that the conscious state itself can not exist without cause, or without first the inertia of information. Btw, if your GOD is infinite and omnipresent:

Where do I exist, and what boundaries separate your GOD from being who I am? Hence, you can't just use Omni's and not think of their consequences... Your are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Like I said, God can be present in you, but that doesn't made you God. You would have to be omnipresent in order to be God.

Quote:Sorry you can not preexist existence, or create existence so yourself can exist. You statement here is a self-refuting argument.

Which is that paradox I was getting; which makes your question impossible to exist (cwutididthur?)

The thing is, you're more or less asking someone to tell you what happened before infinity. That question simply can't be.

If God is infinite, there is no existence event. He's always existed.

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21-10-2012, 02:00 AM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:23 AM)TheJackal Wrote:  
(21-10-2012 01:12 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Okay, I was sorta right the first time.

The first question is paradoxical in regards to God. See what I said about the GRP.

As far as the second question goes:

The second question is under the premise that God is subjugated to existence; that is, if there was no existence, there would be no God.

Which would be correct..

Quote:Again, this is a paradox to God's infinite natures. If God was/is omnipresent, then He's always existed, which subjugates existence. God cannot be passive in any role; He must be active, so the lack of existence is not a question.

You just called everyone here GOD.. That is by definition Pantheism, or at best solipsistic Pantheism while ignoring that the conscious state itself can not exist without cause, or without first the inertia of information. Btw, if your GOD is infinite and omnipresent:

Where do I exist, and what boundaries separate your GOD from being who I am? Hence, you can't just use Omni's and not think of their consequences... Your are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Quote:So, if existence is subjugated by God, He controls things that exist. So, in order for existence to be, it must first be done by God.

Sorry you can not preexist existence, or create existence so yourself can exist. You statement here is a self-refuting argument. And again, that would just be existence doing its thing as it's irrelevant if we come from conscious processes, unconscious processes, or a combination of both. But since a conscious state can't exist without first the inertia of information or a complex adaptive system with feedback to form the foundation and structure of a cognitive system, the best answer possible is through both unconscious and conscious processes. Hence information is higher on the pecking order that a conscious entity that is slave to require it to even know itself exists, or to be conscious at all.. Hence, you are forcing me unnecessarily to go into information science and theory. But I did write a nice little ABC list for fun to express that:

A: There can be no choice, or decision made without information
B: There can be no consciousness or awareness without information, or the inertia of
C: One can not have knowledge without information
D: One can not do anything without information
E: One can not exist without informational value
F: One can not think without information
G: One can not even know one's self exists without information
H: One can not reply, respond, or react without information
I: There can be no "I" without the information that gives I an Identity.
J: There can be no morals, ethics, or laws without information
K: One can not have or express emotions, or feelings without information
L: One can not have experiences, or experience anything at all without information
M: One can not have a place to exist in order to be existent without informational capacity, structure, system, or value.
N: One can not Create, or Design anything without information
O: One can not have the ability to process things without information
P: Intelligence can not exist without information to apply
Q: No system, or process can exist without information
R: Cause and effect can not exist without information
S: Logic can not exist without information
T: Reason can not exist or things can not have a reason / purpose without information
U: There can be no meaning without information
V: There can be no value without information
W: There can be no capacity without informational value
Y: There can be no complexity without informational structure
Z: One can not convey, send, or express a message without information

A-Z all require time.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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