The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
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21-10-2012, 01:41 PM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-10-2012 01:06 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It was more of a tongue-in-cheek response. I've read that article long ago. Smile

You might've read it but 30 years ago Girly didn't have no Google or Wikipedia navigation shit for help, I drove that truck myself without their aid. One of the most instructive and formative truck rides of my life. Thumbsup

(21-10-2012 01:09 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  I would say anything is arguable just because we can argue.. However, the validity of the argument is more important.

The soundness of an argument is far more important than it's validity. Any fucking vulgar drunken hairless talking girly monkey can crank through the making and checking of a valid argument. But if the premises ain't self-evident and indisputable, Girly's just getting off on mental masturbation. ... Not that there's anything wrong with that. Big Grin

Let me remind you that this is a thought experiment and not a troll thread.. I am challenging positions for the intrigue to see where it goes. So far we have a few interesting arguments against the OP.
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21-10-2012, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 02:03 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:41 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  
(21-10-2012 01:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You might've read it but 30 years ago Girly didn't have no Google or Wikipedia navigation shit for help, I drove that truck myself without their aid. One of the most instructive and formative truck rides of my life. Thumbsup


The soundness of an argument is far more important than it's validity. Any fucking vulgar drunken hairless talking girly monkey can crank through the making and checking of a valid argument. But if the premises ain't self-evident and indisputable, Girly's just getting off on mental masturbation. ... Not that there's anything wrong with that. Big Grin

Let me remind you that this is a thought experiment and not a troll thread.

I never considered you a troll. Are you considering me a troll for pointing out the difference between a sound and valid argument? 'Cause if you are I will object ... forcefully ... in the dohyō ... in full fundoshi garb.

You're starting to tickle my arrogant fucking asshole prick Spidey-sense and I know that's not your intent. Being an arrogant fucking asshole prick myself, I know how to fine tune the receiver.

I have forgiven 51 unprovoked insults Heywood Jahblome has directed at forum members.
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21-10-2012, 02:07 PM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:41 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  Let me remind you that this is a thought experiment and not a troll thread.. I am challenging positions for the intrigue to see where it goes. So far we have a few interesting arguments against the OP.
If it was an interesting thought experiment, I might give it a try. No offense.
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21-10-2012, 02:21 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 03:01 PM by TheJackal.)
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:51 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-10-2012 01:41 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  Let me remind you that this is a thought experiment and not a troll thread.. I am challenging positions for the intrigue to see where it goes. So far we have a few interesting arguments against the OP.

I never considered you a troll. Are you considering me a troll for pointing out the difference between a sound and valid argument? 'Cause if you are I will object ... with force ... in the dohyō ... in full fundoshi garb.

No, I am just trying to prevent it from going there.. Smile language is getting a little to much on the side of rhetoric vs focusing on the subject. Anyways lets move forward here and see if anyone could kindly perhaps provide an alternative because that would be interesting to discuss as well Smile

Also, here is another aspect of the thought experiment that might help. Can we all agree that we need a place to exist? And if so, I think this might help:

This is a presumption for example purposes... And this presumes I exist here on Earth. And that Earth exists in this solar system to which exists in this Universe. Ok that is as far as we can empirically go in regards to where "here" is.. Now the question gets interesting as to "where" does this observable universe exist? And if the universe is finite, and exists in a larger place of existence, where does that larger place of existence exist? See this become a question of infinite egress here... But we often say we exist in Reality or in existence and that our location is relative. However our location in an infinite system has no real meaning other than we exist "here" within that infinite system when we relate that in reference to the system as a whole. So the relative existence is reference to something else in reality or existence such as another star, or galaxy, or maybe another universe should one exist.

So if Christians think "Heaven" exists, or that GOD exists, Can they give us the coordinates to this place or GOD in relation to Earth? Hence, where in Reality would Heaven, or this GOD be located in relation to Earth? So what part of reality or existence does this GOD or place of "Heaven" exist in? Ahh and then we have the problem of infinite egress again. Now see the interesting thing here is that all these questions can still be asked regardless of where you are in Reality, or what subset reality you find yourself in. Hence, a GOD or even a Place of heaven can not solve infinite regress or egress here. They can not fundamentally solve why we are "here", or "where" we come from. So giving no conscious being can exist without cause, we have to look at the big picture and realize that no single conscious entity could resolve this or represent the answer to the question, and why those questions in the op are so potent in regards to the existence of a "GOD" claimed to have created "everything"..
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21-10-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 02:21 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  No, I am just trying to prevent it from going there.. Smile

Well you're not all that adept at that, brother, but it's all good. Thumbsup

(21-10-2012 02:21 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  Also, here is another aspect of the thought experiment that might help. Can we all agree that we need a place to exist?

No we cannot, It's premature. First convince me I exist, or you, either one would work.

I have forgiven 51 unprovoked insults Heywood Jahblome has directed at forum members.
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21-10-2012, 03:20 PM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
Quote:No we cannot, It's premature. First convince me I exist, or you, either one would work.

Me or you are just examples. I can't convince you that anything exists other than state that if nothing existed, not even nothing would exist if we go by literal definition. Hence a self-refuting concept is false by consequence. So the presupposition is not without merit or empirical support here. So something must exist, and everything that does exist must be in and of something. So granted I can not prove you or I exist with 100% certainty, I don't think it would not invalidate the premise of the OP. So if you or I should exist, where would that be?
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21-10-2012, 03:33 PM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 01:25 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  You keep saying this, but that is consistent with the definitions of both words. And you aren't providing alternatives to even infer otherwise. Hence what definition do you think you are going to use, or what they are going to use here?

There are many. None of them include that one.

(21-10-2012 01:25 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  No it would be a Universal set of all sets.

THAT is STILL a structure in which it exists.

(21-10-2012 01:25 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  It's not an oxymoron to say a rock is in and of existence. The rock is an existent thing, or entity, but it's a part of Reality itself / Existence itself. And you aren't going to say the rock exists nowhere, or not in existence under the premise that it exists.


That is not an oxymoron, but that is NOT what you said in the OP. You said "existence it the totality of Reality.", not "exists In Reality". If non-existence, and non-Reality, exist, it is not the totality.

(21-10-2012 01:25 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  And to be of reality you have to be in and of the structure of reality.. A structure of Unreality can not in the literal context actually exist in Reality.

Exactly. So where did the structure come from ?

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21-10-2012, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 06:52 PM by TheJackal.)
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
Quote:There are many. None of them include that one.

Please feel free to list the examples

Quote:THAT is STILL a structure in which it exists.

It would be both.. And that is the point of Universal set..

Quote:That is not an oxymoron, but that is NOT what you said in the OP. You said "existence it the totality of Reality.", not "exists In Reality". If non-existence, and non-Reality, exist, it is not the totality.

The context of the OP was using "Existence" as synonymous with Reality.. Hence, what I said in the OP would also not have made that statement an oxymoron either. The statement expressed the intended context of the OP. However, Doesn't matter which word you use, and you are just trying to avoid the attended context without providing an alternative to discuss. And non-existence or Non-reality can not exist by definition. Their existence would be self-refuting and thus impossible. Hence, if nothing existed, nothing would exist..not even nothing.. So those are dismissed and invalid by consequence, and just descriptive words for what is irrelevant, or place cards for what you expect to be there. So just because I say there is nothing in my coffee cup, it doesn't mean their can literally be nothing in my coffee cup. Nothing is a place card for coffee, but can't in itself literally exist in my coffee cup. You have air, a volume space ect in the cup.. And I don't think a Christian is going to want to say their GOD exists in a place of nonexistence.. : )

Quote:Exactly. So where did the structure come from ?
That question would be meaningless since it would be literally the structure of "everywhere".. It is the value and structure of "where" in totality. It's simply there because the opposite can not literally be an existing place of existence or Reality. Hence the capacity and volume of Reality / Existence would be infinite, and what you are thus dealing with is the infinite hotel where there can not exist a boundary or limit to it's capacity or volume. And we simply don't understand that by trying to imagine the scope of infinite volume or capacity of, we understand it by understanding why no boundary can likely exist.. So if a zero value for capacity and volume can not exist, neither can a boundary to the system. So for anything to exist at all, this must hold true as our existence can not be contained in nothing to which has no volume or capacity to do so or sustain our existence.

So when I asked where we can not find existence in Reality, or even Reality in existence, it was to show you why they are synonymous. Now if I have to, I can restructure the OP to say "Reality" instead of "Existence" without a difference in context.
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21-10-2012, 04:20 PM (This post was last modified: 21-10-2012 04:34 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
(21-10-2012 03:20 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  Me or you are just examples.

Exemplars of what do you think?

(21-10-2012 03:20 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  ... So something must exist, ...

The fuck you say?

(21-10-2012 04:12 PM)TheJackal Wrote:  And non-existence or Non-reality can not exist by definition. Their existence would be self-refuting and thus impossible.

The fuck you say?

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21-10-2012, 04:32 PM
RE: The Hardest 2 questions you could ever ask a Christian.
doh ... double-post, I blame Deep.

I have forgiven 51 unprovoked insults Heywood Jahblome has directed at forum members.
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