The Hetero-Nomative Box
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19-07-2013, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 19-07-2013 02:47 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
(19-07-2013 02:13 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(19-07-2013 02:01 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Nach ever cool...

I agree, I just didn't get that tone from the OP. It felt accusatory, like "Why are you so ignorant with your heterosexual ways!?"

You know I endorse no restriction on personal freedom so long as it does no harm...but I don't appreciate being called backwards or ignorant because I like things that go vroom, lighting stuff on fire and drinking beer.

All those things you listed are basic human rights and should be defended. I just don't like being told that I think within a box, it makes me hostile...I've spent my whole adult life attempting challenging pre-conceptions.

Yeah, the OP sounds a bit harsh. I kind of fail to see that now because after I wen't down the rabbit's hole of gender studies I found myself so narrow minded and sexist that it kind of forced me to make a pretty big mind shift.

It's like learning a new language, at some point you find that the word for table in other languages have a slightly different meaning, and that's the same for every word, at some point you realize that you've been missing a whole universe of ideas and connections because you thought your language pretty much covered everything...

That's the thing with the box, once you get out of it, the world is full of weird possibilities, you don't want to try everything, but just knowing they're there gives you a really profound understanding of the word "different" not better not worse, not higher, not abnormal, not in another part of a known spectrum.
Completely and absolutely different... like a flat land inhabitant seeing the 3D world different.

mindfuck I tell you... that's why some feminist end up being crazy feminazis... mind-fucking-fuck

In college I had an academic work scholarship and I would take 5 classes instead of 4 and always drop one...

So for my 5th course Jr. year I took 'Anthropology of Gender.' At the time I was really into Desmond Morris' and The Naked Ape and I wanted to learn more about gender roles in ancient history and gender division/evolution. I went to about 3 classes before I knew that it was my drop. Not only was the subject matter not nearly what I expected but I was the only straight male in the classes and I swear I couldn't finish a sentence without someone blindly attacking me. The professor was so staunchly on the nurture side of nature/nurture that it was laughable. If she asked why men hold the role of navigator the answer was not "We have a piece of iron in our noses and a directional sense honed over generations of nomadic hunting." it was "Because horrible misogynist men told woman that they where terrible at it and wouldn't let them learn." Of course in reality the difference is minute and nature sets up nurture and then they intertwine and influence each other....but with her it the nature point wasn't valid in the slightest.

I actually know quite a bit about other cultures and various alternative family structures and gender roles, I just hate being made to feel responsible for generations of past oppression like somehow that is my fault or that my views are invalid on the grounds that I have a dick.

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19-07-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
(19-07-2013 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  When I see others in the street, I don't automatically assume anything about their sexuality.
Why are you concerned what others assume or why do you think they assume anything?

For me it is important, because at least in my case, the awkwardness that comes from breaking other people's assumptions, eventually, gets under my skin and actually make me don't want to talk about anything that is remotely related to anything sexual or romantic.
If every time you talk about your feelings to someone you have to spend half an hour talking about tolerance and open mindedness and gay marriage and stuff, at some point you get tired and just decide not to open your feelings to anyone.

Yeah, maybe I whine too much, but it's not false that there's a difference, and that difference can affect people at some point.

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19-07-2013, 02:48 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
nach_in Wrote:It is part of the hetero-normative to catalogue any kind of non-heterosexual orientation as promiscuous and unstable, gays are promiscousm, bisexuals only want to fuck everyone and never settle down... When sexual orientation is actually only a definition of the range of people one wants to have sexual relations with, it say nothing about the romantic aspirations of the individual or the family they dream of having (if any) or anything else.
Since hanging around asexuality forums, I have begun to completely separate romantic and sexual orientations, because it's useful in the case of asexuals. Many of them are still romantically attracted to same, opposite, or either/any gender; they just don't experience sexual attraction. And many of them strongly want children (though some don't want to have these kids as a result of coitus) as much as any heterosexuals who want kids do. I don't know the statistics for homosexuals, but there are certainly visible homosexual celebrities who have children, whether adopted or biological (to one of them, anyway). Heterosexuals don't have a monopoly on stable relationships/families.

(19-07-2013 02:40 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  In college I had an academic work scholarship and I would take 5 classes instead of 4 and always drop one...

So for my 5th course Jr. year I took 'Anthropology of Gender.' At the time I was really into Desmond Morris' and The Naked Ape and I wanted to learn more about gender roles in ancient history and gender division/evolution. I went to about 3 classes before I knew that it was my drop. Not only was the subject matter not nearly what I expected but I was the only straight male in the classes and I swear I couldn't finish a sentence without someone blindly attacking me. The professor was so staunchly on the nature side of nature/nurture that it was laughable. If she asked why men hold the role of navigator the answer was not "We have a piece of iron in our noses and a directional sense honed over generations of nomadic hunting." it was "Because horrible misogynist men told woman that they where terrible at it and wouldn't let them learn." Of course in reality the difference is minute and nature sets up nurture and then they intertwine and influence each other.

I actually know quite a bit about other cultures and various alternative family structures and gender roles, I just hate being made to feel responsible for generations of past oppression like somehow that is my fault or that my views are invalid on the grounds that I have a dick.
I'm actually starting to change my views on this recently, from the 100% nurture/0% nature view, because hormones do seem to play a role in some of these things.
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19-07-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
(19-07-2013 02:40 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(19-07-2013 02:13 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Yeah, the OP sounds a bit harsh. I kind of fail to see that now because after I wen't down the rabbit's hole of gender studies I found myself so narrow minded and sexist that it kind of forced me to make a pretty big mind shift.

It's like learning a new language, at some point you find that the word for table in other languages have a slightly different meaning, and that's the same for every word, at some point you realize that you've been missing a whole universe of ideas and connections because you thought your language pretty much covered everything...

That's the thing with the box, once you get out of it, the world is full of weird possibilities, you don't want to try everything, but just knowing they're there gives you a really profound understanding of the word "different" not better not worse, not higher, not abnormal, not in another part of a known spectrum.
Completely and absolutely different... like a flat land inhabitant seeing the 3D world different.

mindfuck I tell you... that's why some feminist end up being crazy feminazis... mind-fucking-fuck

In college I had an academic work scholarship and I would take 5 classes instead of 4 and always drop one...

So for my 5th course Jr. year I took 'Anthropology of Gender.' At the time I was really into Desmond Morris' and The Naked Ape and I wanted to learn more about gender roles in ancient history and gender division/evolution. I went to about 3 classes before I knew that it was my drop. Not only was the subject matter not nearly what I expected but I was the only straight male in the classes and I swear I couldn't finish a sentence without someone blindly attacking me. The professor was so staunchly on the nature side of nature/nurture that it was laughable. If she asked why men hold the role of navigator the answer was not "We have a piece of iron in our noses and a directional sense honed over generations of nomadic hunting." it was "Because horrible misogynist men told woman that they where terrible at it and wouldn't let them learn." Of course in reality the difference is minute and nature sets up nurture and then they intertwine and influence each other.

I actually know quite a bit about other cultures and various alternative family structures and gender roles, I just hate being made to feel responsible for generations of past oppression like somehow that is my fault or that my views are invalid on the grounds that I have a dick.

UGHH!!! I get what you say, sorry you had to go through that... Yeah, a lot of gender studies things are too sided on the women side and they don't pay attention to the men's side. Luckily that's changing a bit, there're a few studies and movements popping out about a male perspective of all the gender debate.

I'd say you read some introductory book, and try to not take the hits personally, at some point the ideas sink in and you realize that the very idea of not accepting the "male objectivity" epistemology forces the discourse to sound accusatory.

And read it alone, or maybe use an internet forum if you really need to talk the ideas, but you guys have a plague of extremism so ideas are hard to get when everything is so politicized.

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19-07-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
Whats funny is even the LGBT community is subject to 'the box.' On campus in the day we had a place called 'The Women's Center' but it's role was all things LGBT/Domestic Abuse/Rape Prevention/Condom Distribution. Yet the very name is exclusionary not only straight males, but gay males and trans-persons. Why was it not called the gender center? I even got drunk in the quad one night and brought up the point with the centers most prominent gay male...To which he basically responded "yeah, we where talking about maybe changing it but..."

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19-07-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
The nature/nurture debate seems kind of dumb to me, and you could make the argument that it's a patriarchal approach to the issue (trying to understand the causes to control the phenomena is the "way of men" Tongue )

The very idea that nurture is different from nature sounds absurd to me, we are one thing, a vastly complex system of billions of interactions of trillions of elements. We are nature because our environment affects us from the outside, ans we're nurture because our genes affect the way we relate with others... Doesn't mean we can't try to find the causes, but we have to understand that we won't find a switch though.

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19-07-2013, 02:58 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
(19-07-2013 02:43 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(19-07-2013 02:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  When I see others in the street, I don't automatically assume anything about their sexuality.
Why are you concerned what others assume or why do you think they assume anything?

For me it is important, because at least in my case, the awkwardness that comes from breaking other people's assumptions, eventually, gets under my skin and actually make me don't want to talk about anything that is remotely related to anything sexual or romantic.
If every time you talk about your feelings to someone you have to spend half an hour talking about tolerance and open mindedness and gay marriage and stuff, at some point you get tired and just decide not to open your feelings to anyone.

Yeah, maybe I whine too much, but it's not false that there's a difference, and that difference can affect people at some point.

But you don't have to explain yourself. Why are you doing this?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-07-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
(19-07-2013 02:58 PM)nach_in Wrote:  The nature/nurture debate seems kind of dumb to me, and you could make the argument that it's a patriarchal approach to the issue (trying to understand the causes to control the phenomena is the "way of men" Tongue )

The very idea that nurture is different from nature sounds absurd to me, we are one thing, a vastly complex system of billions of interactions of trillions of elements. We are nature because our environment affects us from the outside, ans we're nurture because our genes affect the way we relate with others... Doesn't mean we can't try to find the causes, but we have to understand that we won't find a switch though.

No doubt the two are inseparably intertwined almost to the point where distinction is silly, but that doesn't mean you can just exclude 3 Billion years of biological development as meaningless...

Finally got an interesting thread going and it's time to hit the bar...I'll BBL.

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19-07-2013, 03:10 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
(19-07-2013 02:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-07-2013 02:43 PM)nach_in Wrote:  For me it is important, because at least in my case, the awkwardness that comes from breaking other people's assumptions, eventually, gets under my skin and actually make me don't want to talk about anything that is remotely related to anything sexual or romantic.
If every time you talk about your feelings to someone you have to spend half an hour talking about tolerance and open mindedness and gay marriage and stuff, at some point you get tired and just decide not to open your feelings to anyone.

Yeah, maybe I whine too much, but it's not false that there's a difference, and that difference can affect people at some point.

But you don't have to explain yourself. Why are you doing this?

Yes I do need to explain, they want to understand, if people don't understand then the whole equality thing is just a masochistic battle to occupy the victim role in a sick way.
Equality doesn't come from some paper signed by some politicians, or some forced acceptance of two guys holding hands. It needs to be a deep and as universal as possible understanding that we are all equal because we're all different from each other. And that's a hard concept to understand for a lot of people.

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19-07-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: The Hetero-Nomative Box
(19-07-2013 03:02 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  
(19-07-2013 02:58 PM)nach_in Wrote:  The nature/nurture debate seems kind of dumb to me, and you could make the argument that it's a patriarchal approach to the issue (trying to understand the causes to control the phenomena is the "way of men" Tongue )

The very idea that nurture is different from nature sounds absurd to me, we are one thing, a vastly complex system of billions of interactions of trillions of elements. We are nature because our environment affects us from the outside, ans we're nurture because our genes affect the way we relate with others... Doesn't mean we can't try to find the causes, but we have to understand that we won't find a switch though.

No doubt the two are inseparably intertwined almost to the point where distinction is silly, but that doesn't mean you can just exclude 3 Billion years of biological development as meaningless...

Finally got an interesting thread going and it's time to hit the bar...I'll BBL.

Oh no, it's not meaningless at all, the distinction is absurd as it's presented (a politically loaded explanatory "theory"). We could still use it as a framework for research or as a way to focus some investigation subject or something.

I mean that culture is not divorced from biology, and the same way that a chemist has to know about physics and vice versa, a sociologist has to know about biology, and vice versa. Maybe that'll be the big breakthrough of our generation, breaking the old boxes, every box :O

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