The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
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17-04-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
This is for #40. I C interesting, you do agree with the christians that there will be a transformation and we continue to exist on and on after this life. We all have different perception on how exactly it's going to be after we we die, but the basics is still the same. Please forgive me if I seem sarcastic, it comes natural for me.
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17-04-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
This is for number #40. Didn't see this other part. At first I did have reply option on each post. I don't know how or why it changed. I don't know how to change it back. But thank you very much for answering my question.
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17-04-2015, 06:19 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
(17-04-2015 05:37 PM)jballadarez Wrote:  This is for #40. I C interesting, you do agree with the christians that there will be a transformation and we continue to exist on and on after this life.

No. Absolutely not.

"We" will not continue to exist. The physical components that make us up will still exist but that doesn't help us in any way. Each person is an intricate organization of different particles; when that organization is broken up the person that they constituted no longer exists.

Let me try another example. You build a wall out of bricks. Some time later you tear it down and use some of the bricks to pave a walkway, some to line a garden, some to hold down the cover over your pool, and some you crush into powder. Does the wall still exist?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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17-04-2015, 06:28 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
(15-04-2015 01:21 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  Most theist thinkers assert they have an evidence-based (e.g. John Lennox) faith and that their belief is rational (e.g. William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga, any number of other Christian apologists). I’m not denying that they are indeed intelligent people and I don’t want to say anything derogatory about them. Most of them would instantly shatter me in any philosophical discussion or organized debate. They are well-read, well-educated and generally nice people. This is not a hate post.

“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:” Isaiah 1:18 ESV
“And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.” 1 Corinthians 15:14 NIV

The thing is; they are mostly right.
- There is a remarkable number of historical evidence for Jesus Christ, the Jesus Christ, concerning his life and crucifixion. Here is a short but interesting video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CC7qNZkOE
- There is also a good number of arguments for God’s existence that as of today remain undefeated, although much critiqued. These include the Kalam Cosmological argument, the Teleological argument, the Ontological argument, the Moral argument, etc.

At first glance (and for me it took three years of study to grasp it fully) it does seem like their position is without any element of blind faith. But there indeed does exist one, a subtle but vitally important presupposition, what I call conditional exclusivistic foundationalism.

1. Most of them would assert that intuition is the highest order of knowledge, more important than empiricism, rationality and emotions. They are somewhat right. Without intuitive trust in, for example, believing that the external world does exist and is not a figment of your imagination, you couldn’t get anywhere in life.
2. They assert that our intuitions, especially our moral intuitions lead to the Christian God e.g. torturing a baby for fun is objectively wrong in any possible world and it is not just a subjective opinion.

My internal defeaters for this are my moral intuitions that directly go against the Bible. For example I think not tolerating gays is immoral. The Bible is pretty clear that it is just and good to do so. Another one is more subtle, but for me even more powerful. I think that in this day and age, killing and eating animals is wrong. The Bible asserts that man has dominion over all animals and it’s perfectly okay to offer them as blood sacrifices (although not encouraged after the Old Testament) or to eat them.

The theist responses to these internal defeater claims are:

- you have to line up your morality with the Bible, if it’s in the Bible, it’s correct, if it’s not in the Bible, it’s incorrect
- bad doctrine (incorrect conclusions based on not understanding something)
- demonic oppression (evil spirits clouding your mind and your moral discernment)
- being handed over to a contorted mind by God himself
“24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.” Romans 1 NIV

My conclusion is that either my moral discernment is flawed and I have been handed over or that my internal defeaters stand and invalidate Christianity. In any case, it makes debates pointless.

In my experience, and I have had literally hundreds of debates, online and offline, if the theist feels strong enough to want to debate, he has solidly surrounded himself with walls of delusion, you could literally dismantle every single posit he makes and he will hear it not. BUT, that isn't who I am talking to during the debate, I am laying out the facts and dismantling the delusion for those on the sidelines, those watching the debate who are on the fence, and if I plant a few seeds of doubt, make an assertion that makes them go, "no way, I gotta go look that up"...and voila!...their trip down the epistemological journey to truth begins....that is why it is worth the effort...to me anyway.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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17-04-2015, 11:10 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
I had to stop to sleep, shower and eat which I didn't want to do any of those, because I wanted to hang out with you guys a little bit. I would like to share something. This one you don't have to believe in God just truth. The scriptures states God is truth. If that's the case and because we're His children then that means so are we. Truth is conformity to fact or actuality. Hello are we not here. Also truth has to do with reality, are we not real. Truth has to do with sincerity and integrity. Well these are attribute we can exercise. Truth has to do with Fidelity another attribute we can have. Truth has to do with actuality which is a state or fact of being actual. We are here right. Synonym for truth is existence. I don't know about you but I believe I exist. Truth is a fact or condition that is real. Again I believe I'm real. Have a good night you guys, don't let the bed bugs bite.
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18-04-2015, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 18-04-2015 01:34 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
(16-04-2015 03:15 PM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  It's in the video of the debate. Watch it if you are interested. But of course you aren't that interested, which makes this conversation pointless.

What is the timestamp on his opponent laying out his mea culpa?

Also, what is the timestamp on WLC laying out his own mea culpa for all the horseshit strawmen/character aspersions he's made in his sloppy argumentation?

[eta -- Chas got there first, goddamnit. This is what I get for replying before reading the entire thread.]

See where I'm going with this -- or do you need more, uh, help? [Image: 2mdfamh_th.jpg]
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18-04-2015, 01:31 AM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
(17-04-2015 05:52 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 08:19 PM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  He's means you've got the smell of a theist in atheist clothing.

I got pretty skeptical when I read this:

(15-04-2015 01:21 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  - There is also a good number of arguments for God’s existence that as of today remain undefeated, although much critiqued. These include the Kalam Cosmological argument, the Teleological argument, the Ontological argument, the Moral argument, etc.

Several people (myself included) detailed why these arguments don't hold any water.

Anyone who regards Anselm's "proofs" as "undefeated" clearly hasn't had much practice with critical thinking.
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18-04-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
(17-04-2015 11:10 PM)jballadarez Wrote:  I had to stop to sleep, shower and eat which I didn't want to do any of those, because I wanted to hang out with you guys a little bit. I would like to share something. This one you don't have to believe in God just truth. The scriptures states God is truth. If that's the case and because we're His children then that means so are we. Truth is conformity to fact or actuality. Hello are we not here. Also truth has to do with reality, are we not real. Truth has to do with sincerity and integrity. Well these are attribute we can exercise. Truth has to do with Fidelity another attribute we can have. Truth has to do with actuality which is a state or fact of being actual. We are here right. Synonym for truth is existence. I don't know about you but I believe I exist. Truth is a fact or condition that is real. Again I believe I'm real. Have a good night you guys, don't let the bed bugs bite.

That's a cute little word game but doesn't mean a thing.
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18-04-2015, 05:02 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
I respect your choice. My schizophrenia is flaring up right now so I need to take a quick break until it pass. But I wanted to ask a question to understand something. If evolution is real and we came from a single cell and monkeys now humans not in that order. Shouldn't there only be humans on earth by now. We still have single cells and monkeys. If evolution is real shouldn't it be active today. We should have all the messing links a long side us today. Or did evolution get tired and took a break or did someone forget to pay the bills. Just wondering. Be back soon, mess you guys.
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18-04-2015, 05:39 PM
RE: The Hidden Blind Faith of Christian Intellectuals that Makes Debates Pointless
(18-04-2015 05:02 PM)jballadarez Wrote:  I respect your choice. My schizophrenia is flaring up right now so I need to take a quick break until it pass. But I wanted to ask a question to understand something. If evolution is real and we came from a single cell and monkeys now humans not in that order. Shouldn't there only be humans on earth by now. We still have single cells and monkeys. If evolution is real shouldn't it be active today. We should have all the messing links a long side us today. Or did evolution get tired and took a break or did someone forget to pay the bills. Just wondering. Be back soon, mess you guys.

I suggest you read a book. Try Why Evolution is True, Jerry A. Coyne, PhD. or The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution, Richard Dawkins, PhD.
Both books are written for the layman.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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