The Holy Trinity Explained
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16-04-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: The Holy Trinity Explained
(15-04-2015 07:55 PM)nicknave21 Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 07:46 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  But they were not.

Nor was there anything like an exodus or a conquest. This is all later bullshit.

I'm curious. Have you read anything aside from that silly-assed bible?

Tell me why the walls are not real



Kathleen Kenyon demonstrated that the Middle Bonze Age town of Jericho was destroyed - probably by an earthquake as there was no sign of military action - c 1550 BCE. Her excavations, a generation after John Garstang tried to date the town to ruins to 1407 to make them "compatible" with bible bullshit (in a fashion) were backed by early C14 dating. In 1995 improved C14 testing confirmed Kenyon's dates. The significance of Kenyon's finds were that the town was destroyed and not rebuilt until the Iron Age. Or, as noted Archaeologist William Dever put it: "The real miracle of 'Joshua' is that he destroyed a city that wasn't there."

The date of 1550 BCE is significant, btw. It was at roughly that time that the Egyptians drove the Hyksos out of Egypt and defeated them at Sharuhen, which was near Gaza. Sharuhen set up almost 400 years of Egyptian hegemony over Canaan....which your precious bible doesn't seem to know anything about.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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16-04-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: The Holy Trinity Explained
(15-04-2015 11:54 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 11:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  That's the problem, they think they've got the greatest argument no one has ever thought of. Yeah...except the hundred or so before them.

It'd be cool if just once, they'd look through the other threads on the forum and read the countless pages of this so they actually understood the arguments for and against their position.

I suppose I'm just jaded these days and the debate stuff isn't all that stimulating to me these days. I feel like I've heard it all over and over haha. Oh well. I come here for the locals, not the incoming debate trolls. I missed y'all.

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16-04-2015, 04:00 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2015 05:34 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Holy Trinity Explained
(15-04-2015 06:44 PM)nicknave21 Wrote:  The point of this thread was to display an explanation for the holy trinity, not to show the proof of God's existence also. If you want proof, try a different thread.
(15-04-2015 06:53 PM)nicknave21 Wrote:  Look, I am not limiting your ability to post in my thread, I am just saying that if you want to talk about the trinity, then you may do so, but I did not create this to dispute God's existence. I do like to see your replies, but I am only here to talk about the trinity.

You keep saying that but here we are, some 14 pages and some 30 odd posts from you later in a thread you made called "The Holy Trinity Explained" and you've mentioned the Holy Spirit exactly once. And that was in passing. I don't think you have a fucking clue what the Holy Trinity is.

#sigh
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16-04-2015, 06:29 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2015 03:56 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: The Holy Trinity Explained
(15-04-2015 03:01 PM)nicknave21 Wrote:  For those of you who might be unclear as to how it really works:

The holy trinity consists of God the father, the son, and the holy spirit, which are all the same person: God. God the father, in verse John 3:16 of the Bible, “...gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.” God the father did this so that Jesus, or God the son, could die for all of the sins that the people committed, that they would have a chance to be in heaven if they believe in God. If you look closely at the verse, it explains that in order to go to heaven, you must believe in God the father’s only begotten son, Jesus. If Jesus was not the son of God the father, we would all go to hell for believing in him, because Jesus would only be an idol to us. An idol is something that you love more than God. For us to worship an idol would be a sin, and would make us sinners, because Exodus 20:3-6 says:

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”

Since Jesus is the son of God the father, and he is asking us to worship him, Jesus must be God the father, or else God would be saying that we should worship idols. Since God is asking us to worship Jesus, and not to worship idols, that makes Jesus not an idol, which makes Jesus the same person as God.

I don't think anyone here is unclear about the trinity concept that was fabricated by the nicene council, but for your benefit, here is a paper i wrote on it....

In Trinitarian theology, the father gives everything he has, his very being, as a free gift to his son. Since the Son has everything that the father has, then they are in fact equal (Albl 139). In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is closely associated with God’s gift of prophecy. For example, “the Lord took some of the spirit from Moses and gave it to the elders, and they were able to prophesy also (Num 11:25). In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is closely associated with the creation of God’s son in human form. For example, Mary conceived Jesus not through ordinary human means, but “through the Holy Spirit” (Matt1:20). In essence, just as Jesus comes in the father’s name, so the Holy Spirit comes in Jesus’ name (Albl 150). I define the Holy Spirit as God’s breath, his very soul, that of which he can giveth away to create life itself...according to Christian doctrine of course, not the real world.

The church understands such self-emptying on the part of God as simultaneously the fulfillment of human existence, whose transformative effects are extended in the church in the world through the work of the Holy Spirit (Mueller 44). As such, parishioners of the New Testament church believe that they can follow this example by sharing the Holy Spirit with others. This is “living through Christ” by spreading the good word, in line with strict interpretation of biblical reference.

In the New Testament, outside of the story of Christ in his teachings, is the insistent belief through Scripture that the end times or transition into the new world in the second coming of Christ to take his place as king of the world would occur at any moment. “That Christ would come soon is an expectation which appears even in the latter writings of the New Testament. It is present in almost every stratum” (Moule 141). A rationalist may posit that today things are going on exactly as they were before, and thus there will never be an end to the world. Believers in the New Testament think that the real mistake here is to make time the determining standard at all. A good analogy of this is that the Christian hope is not measured in terms of time, but in terms of the journey continuing to its completion; the incarnation. The question should not be when is the end of the world, but what can I do to be ready for it? (Moule 148).

Now let’s go back in time to the very formation, fabrication of the Christian faith, the Trinity concept and successful establishment of the Christian religion. We must begin with the immeasurable impact that Emperor Constantine had on the spread of Christianity, and successful suppression of incumbent Roman pagan beliefs. Legend has it that Emperor Constantine saw two stars cross in the sky, in which he took to be a sign from God that Christianity was the only true faith. While his conversion to Christianity in 312 was not truly the moment Christianity came to be the official religion of the Roman Empire, it definitely was one of the major contributing factors for its subsequent acceptance.

Emperor Constantine conducted a religious-based crusade against Licinius in a war to rescue Christians on the east from further persecution. In the years 312 to 313 Emperor Constantine began a systematic policy in which he gave honors, privileges and financial donations to the Christian church and their clergy. In 324, as the unchallenged controller of the East, he prohibited by Royal decree any cultic activities which until then fell under the traditional religions of the Roman Empire, and this is when the status of Christianity as the official religion of the state and its rulers was affirmed (Lieu 7).

Religious scholars concede that Emperor Constantine not only convened important council’s sessions, but also either presided over them, or appointed a Royal official to preside in his place. This reduced the very role of bishops and councils such as Nicaea and Tyre to utter insignificance by assimilating them to members of the Imperial consilium, whose advice was not binding on the Emperor. All decisions taken at the Nicene Council were made by Emperor Constantine alone, since he could completely disregard the advisory opinions of the bishops whom he had summoned to the Council (Lieu 8).

Some scholars contend that Emperor Constantine’s influence was minimal, and merely sat in on the councils out of personal interest. However, when we look at the Council of Nicaea of 359, we see that Emperor Constantine again took a prominent role of control in the theological debate. Once the foundation of Christianity as a predominant religion of the Empire had been successfully established, Emperor Constantine later relinquished some of his control and influence by putting a seal of approval on the rulings of bishops declared at councils. The governors of provinces were not even allowed to rescind what they had decided, for he said the priests of God were more trustworthy than any magistrate (Lieu 10).

We can trace back the very beginning of the entitlement mentality by church hierarchy to Emperor Constantine and his enabling policies. No matter what his crime, a bishop could only be deposed and exiled, not legally tortured and executed (Lieu 17). I am sure this was fundamental in developing the culture within the church of dealing with any indiscretions internally, and not invoking the authority of the legal system. This of course has led to much abuse throughout history. One has only to watch the news these days to see on a routine basis, some priest or other has been exposed for having performed a plethora of transgressions, hidden by the church by simply moving the clergy member to a new area. This mentality just exposes more people to being victimized.

On the basis of Christian faith and the Trinity concept; the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, the first Council of Nicaea in 325 called together by Emperor Constantine, worked to establish a settlement of the issue of the relationship between father and the son. The focus primarily was on defining Jesus Christ as a deity. Establishment of the Holy Spirit was largely unaddressed until after the father and son relationship was settled in 362. After Nicaea, some bishops continued to prefer a term which had been discussed and rejected by the Council: homoiousios, in the sense of the son ‘being of like substance’ with the father. There were other bishops who were antagonistic to the term homoiousios because it was not biblical (O’Collins 184). Seven years later, the Trinitarian terminology was officially adopted after the first Council in Constantinople.

In its letter to Pope Damascus, a post conciliar synod confessed ‘one divinity, power, or substance’ in ‘three most perfect hypostasesin’ (O’Collins 185). At the Trinitarian level, Constantinople I reaffirmed the Nicene Council confession of faith that the son was ’of one substance’ with the father, as well as teaching the divinity of the Holy Spirit (O’Collins 186). Thus, the official establishment of Christian doctrine regarding the Trinity of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit was initiated.

Works Cited:

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Moule, C. F. D., The birth of the New Testament. New York: Harper & Row, 1962. Print

Lieu, Samuel N. C., and Montserrat, Dominic, Constantine: History, Historiography, and Legend. London: Routledge, 2002. Print.

O'Collins, Gerald, Christology: A Biblical, Historical, and Systematic Study of Jesus. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. Print.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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