The Ineffable
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16-03-2013, 10:07 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2013 10:58 PM by Julius.)
RE: The Ineffable
(12-03-2013 06:34 PM)Ghost Wrote:  We know that much of the universe and much of knowledge is quantifiable; however, we know that there is much that cannot be quantified. There is an entire discipline that dedicates itself to qualitative research. The collection and interpretation of qualitative data is as much art as it is science. Perhaps we are not meant to know everything. Perhaps we are merely meant to experience everything. Sometimes we can quantify it, sometimes we can understand it, and sometimes we can only let it wash over us.
Or...sometimes we can quantify God directly! (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/18...4621.html)

As we speak, what you call God is being quantified, analyzed and categorized. As a result, your so-called mystic God will be scientifically castrated.

One of the unforgivable sins in the Bible is denying the "Holy Ghost"...that's o.k. with me, because sooner or later we will learn how to successfully treat the "Holy Ghost" as the mental disease it is! And when the "Holy Ghost" dies....then so does Christianity and every other mystic form of wooooo that enslaves the minds of men.
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16-03-2013, 11:47 PM
RE: The Ineffable
Julius.

Asshole.

I am not a Theist.

Take your ranting somewhere else.

The men are having a conversation.
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17-03-2013, 12:08 AM
RE: The Ineffable
(16-03-2013 11:47 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Julius.

Asshole.

I am not a Theist.

Take your ranting somewhere else.

The men are having a conversation.
I don't believe you.

If you are...an Atheist, then why not refer to God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost as Cock-sucking Bullshit...or something like that.

Let's see you do it. Then I'll leave you alone.

Julius
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17-03-2013, 12:26 AM
RE: The Ineffable
Julius.

I owe you exactly sweet fuck all.

I don't give a fuck what you believe. I am an Agnostic. I've made my beliefs clear in my time here. If you really want to discuss them, start a thread in the appropriate forum. If you want to pretend that I'm something other than an Agnostic, then that just demonstrates what a wantonly stupid fuck you are.

So stop pretending like there's some kind of fucking feud between us, you small-penised attention seeker. I don't know you. I don't fucking care about you. You're nothing to me. You are awesomely disrespectful and as a result, you have none of mine. The only reason I pay any attention to you at all is because you're buzzing in my ear; a problem that I can solve instantly by making you the first person I put on my ignore list.

This thread is about the philosophical discussion of the ineffable. It is not your anger management therapy session. If you have something to contribute to the conversation beyond the written equivalent of vomit, please, by all means, contribute. If you're just going to act out, fuck off. It's not cute. It's not funny. It's just sad. Stop being a juvenile.
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17-03-2013, 12:34 AM
RE: The Ineffable
(17-03-2013 12:26 AM)Ghost Wrote:  So stop pretending like there's some kind of fucking feud between us, you small-penised attention seeker. I don't know you. I don't fucking care about you. You're nothing to me. You are awesomely disrespectful and as a result, you have none of mine. The only reason I pay any attention to you at all is because you're buzzing in my ear; a problem that I can solve instantly by making you the first person I put on my ignore list.
You are a Christian. Why not stop pretending to be anything otherwise?

Why do you insist on confusing Atheists?

Listen, if you want to prove otherwise - that you are not a Christian - then the proof can be easily said by you by just typing a few words. It would make me look stupid, huh?

Why don't you do it? Why don't you so easily make me look stupid when it is within your power?

Julius
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17-03-2013, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2013 01:36 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: The Ineffable
I don't have a philosophical objection to the existence of unknowable things, but would like to see evidence those things are unknowable before I believe for myself they are unknowable. I see any God claim that interacts with the universe in meaningful ways as at least potentially knowable. Those that don't interact with the universe are unknowable at least for now. I'm not sure if they'll always be unknowable, but given no interaction with the universe I also fail to see their relevance to us nor do I see a pathway by which a believer in such claims could rationally come to their beliefs. Even if the unknowable God actually did exist that would not excuse the unfounded belief of its followers.

To me the scientific method at its philosophical core is:
* Come up with ideas that can be tested
* Test those ideas to try and reduce the set of alternatives down to a small set that make reliable predictions about reality

There may well be cognitive limits to our ability to come up with ideas. There may be physical limits to our ability to translate those ideas to testable hypotheses and to actually test those hypotheses. There may further be cognitive limits to our ability to accept the results of that testing process. So in principle the unknowable seems likely to exist. However I don't see us hitting those limits in the short term, and I am highly reluctant to give the benefit of the doubt to a positive claim that specific supernatural claims are unknowable without a damn clear evidential basis for accepting that positive claim.

In short, I'm too sceptical to be agnostic. I'm too sceptical to accept the positive claim of unknowability of God claims without a good reason for accepting the positive claim.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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17-03-2013, 01:32 AM
RE: The Ineffable
Seriously, Julius, what bit of of "I am not a Theist" did you not grasp?

That's close enough to stating non-christian-osity-ness as you will need, surely?

Logically, you could have accused Ghost of being a deist but meh! whatever.


(13-03-2013 08:25 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That guy is pretty unpopular. He thinks his school should run like a business.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/13...96427.html
...

This is one of my favourites, as it happens.

Many claim that education is a 'service' as in Education Services (a term used in the UK while I still lived there).

Definition of a Service (from ITIL): A service is a means of delivering value to customers by facilitating outcomes that customers want to achieve without the ownership of specific costs and risks.

This makes schools a 'Service Provider' which can indeed be run as a business.


If this is true, then it draws a very interesting distinction between the public and private sectors...

For private schools (non-UK version), the parents are the 'customers' and therefore the children are the 'users' and 'learning' is the outcome.

For public schools (non-UK version), the state is the customer and the children are 'product' and 'productive work-force' is the outcome.

Also interesting is why someone from the Education sector is speaking at all about the 'ineffable'. Imagine trying to create a lesson plan around that which cannot be described.

Consider

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17-03-2013, 01:38 AM
RE: The Ineffable
DLJ, I think you've missed the religious nature of most private schools:
For private schools, the parents are the 'customers' and therefore the children thinking and believing what the parents think and believe is the outcome.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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17-03-2013, 02:14 AM
RE: The Ineffable
(17-03-2013 01:38 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  DLJ, I think you've missed the religious nature of most private schools:
For private schools, the parents are the 'customers' and therefore the children thinking and believing what the parents think and belief is the outcome.

Good point. Well made.

Wink

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17-03-2013, 03:26 AM
RE: The Ineffable
(12-03-2013 06:34 PM)Ghost Wrote:  We know that much of the universe and much of knowledge is quantifiable; however, we know that there is much that cannot be quantified. There is an entire discipline that dedicates itself to qualitative research. The collection and interpretation of qualitative data is as much art as it is science. Perhaps we are not meant to know everything. Perhaps we are merely meant to experience everything. Sometimes we can quantify it, sometimes we can understand it, and sometimes we can only let it wash over us.
I would say everything existing and observable is quantifiable, though our quantifying abilities are subject to ever-changing conditions. Machines can manipulate things with nanometers precision. That wasn't possible decades ago. Perhaps we don't currently have the ability to quantify experiences like "love" and such, but future ability remains yet to be seen, of course. It might happen, but then again, quantifying might be rendered illegal in all countries and stricken from existence in the year 2086 (provided the planet we live on isn't destroyed before then, of course).

As for whether or not we're meant to know everything - what is doing the meaning?

(16-03-2013 10:07 PM)Julius Wrote:  As we speak, what you call God is being quantified, analyzed and categorized. As a result, your so-called mystic God will be scientifically castrated.

One of the unforgivable sins in the Bible is denying the "Holy Ghost"...that's o.k. with me, because sooner or later we will learn how to successfully treat the "Holy Ghost" as the mental disease it is! And when the "Holy Ghost" dies....then so does Christianity and every other mystic form of wooooo that enslaves the minds of men.
Quantifying brain activity does not equal quantifying "God" unless by "God" people are referring only to their ideas of a deity.

If you have no basis for respecting the beliefs of others, what is your basis for respecting your belief in the absence of "God"? If there is no evidence that "God" does not exist, are you not practicing a "mystic form of wooooo", yourself? Don't you think that sincerely telling someone to listen when you're typing a message for them requires a notion that "enslaves the mind"?

(17-03-2013 12:34 AM)Julius Wrote:  Listen, if you want to prove otherwise - that you are not a Christian - then the proof can be easily said by you by just typing a few words. It would make me look stupid, huh?
I am a Christian. I am not a Christian.

By your logic exhibited in your post, you would now assume that I am a Christian while also not being a Christian. That's impossible. Anything we say to explain our beliefs is not evidence of those beliefs.

(17-03-2013 01:28 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  In short, I'm too sceptical to be agnostic. I'm too sceptical to accept the positive claim of unknowability of God claims without a good reason for accepting the positive claim.
When I read this, I thought it didn't make sense, because I thought agnosticism included being skeptical in the way you mentioned. Now I see the term "agnostic" is not even unanimously defined.

So what's the word for one who doesn't assume any deities do/don't exist, but who also doesn't assume we can/can't know they do/don't exist?
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