The Ineffable
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18-03-2013, 07:34 AM
RE: The Ineffable
Hey, fat.

I think I see what you mean.

In the OP I mentioned that the unknowable should not be confused with the unknown. Similarly, the unquantifiable should not be confused with the unquantified.

So yeah, I'm just curious about what qualitative research means to the idea of a perfectly quantifiable universe.

Hey, DLJ.

I'll take 50ccs of awesome post, STAT!

I wonder, is the feeling of personal safety itself ineffable?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-03-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: The Ineffable
(18-03-2013 07:34 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, DLJ.

I'll take 50ccs of awesome post, STAT!

I wonder, is the feeling of personal safety itself ineffable?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

... as in:

There's no effin Security and only one effin firewall.

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18-03-2013, 03:31 PM
RE: The Ineffable
(18-03-2013 07:34 AM)Ghost Wrote:  In the OP I mentioned that the unknowable should not be confused with the unknown. Similarly, the unquantifiable should not be confused with the unquantified.

Yeah, you definitely did do that. I was only trying to convey that whether anything is ineffable or not is an unknown. Smile

(18-03-2013 07:34 AM)Ghost Wrote:  So yeah, I'm just curious about what qualitative research means to the idea of a perfectly quantifiable universe.

Could you specify just what you refer to by "means"?
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18-03-2013, 04:09 PM
RE: The Ineffable
Hey, Fat.

In what way does it affect?

Or.

What is the relationship between?

Hey, DLJ.

Exactly Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-03-2013, 04:22 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2013 04:45 PM by Luminon.)
RE: The Ineffable
(12-03-2013 06:34 PM)Ghost Wrote:  He spoke about the unknown, or that which is not yet known but shall be in the future: is there life on Europa, can astral physics and quantum physics be reconciled, can humans build a sentient computer?
I have some mental notes on the subject. Not important, though.
What is astral physics? Astrophysics? String theory is one of candidates here and there are others. If you mean literally... astral physics, my favorites on its link to science is magnetic plasma theory and axion physics, seen in the light of string theory, possibly. These are my mental notes on the subject, not firmly held beliefs.

As for sentient computers... In a sense, all energy is an expression of sentience in the broadest sense. Atom is sentient in that broadest sense, capable of appropriate, non-random physical response. In that sense our brain is as much a mechanism as a computer is. The difference between us and a computer is, that we are composite beings of multiple mechanisms, while a computer is a much simplier, non-composite being, using only one form of energy. These are again my mental notes on the subject.

(12-03-2013 06:34 PM)Ghost Wrote:  And then he spoke about the unknowable. My immediate reaction was that some of the more die hard science types around here might have issue with the idea of there being something that science cannot figure out. So there's that. When he spoke of it, he referred to the ineffable; that which is irreducible, that which cannot be described in words, like the way we know we're in love, or the way that we know that life has meaning; possibly, I would add, even the source of our intuition, our insight, or our creativity.

He is quick to point out that the unknowable is not to be confused with the unknown.

Now as someone with a passion for the creation of meaning, my understanding is such that we cannot experience the world without first reducing it to the form of a word; as he says, to understand it in cognitive terms. It is through that mediation that we understand the world. Without words, we are, quite literally, speechless. But we can experience and appreciate things that cannot be put into cognitive terms regardless of the fact that we don't know them.

Instantly, this idea jives with me. I know to which he refers when he speaks of the kind of experience one simply cannot explain or define. But I'm curious about the thoughts of others.
I have had this experience, I know what he is trying to describe. I would name it "the Divine Pattern", for it really is a pattern in the broadest sense and it is the highest perceivable thing. It is rather similar to Plato's world of forms. This is the arrangement of the nature itself as it was, is and is meant to be. If good artists steal, this is where the great artists steal from and from where I intend to steal ideas as well. This is why the great minds think alike, they all steal from the same source. Only the source is so great that everyone takes what fits their style. Artists take art, philosophers philosophy, scientists scientific theories...

But it is indeed inexpressible, unspeakable, abstract. So abstract, that the definition of a triangle is a concrete thing compared to that. So it is a very abstract aspect of reality. To be able to translate and speak this language, we need vocabulary. This vocabulary is reality, it is all the concrete humanistic and natural sciences and speakable ideas. These we must first learn or derive and then compare to the Divine Pattern and the Divine Pattern then arranges them in a correct way, the right priorities upwards, the low ones downwards. This is why it is good to be in touch with the DP, it says nothing new (you have to already know that to understand what DP says about it), but it's the best template to arrange everything by. Perhaps all evils in the world come from giving a wrong value to wrong things at wrong time.

(12-03-2013 06:34 PM)Ghost Wrote:  We know that much of the universe and much of knowledge is quantifiable; however, we know that there is much that cannot be quantified. There is an entire discipline that dedicates itself to qualitative research. The collection and interpretation of qualitative data is as much art as it is science. Perhaps we are not meant to know everything. Perhaps we are merely meant to experience everything. Sometimes we can quantify it, sometimes we can understand it, and sometimes we can only let it wash over us.

For myself, I quite readily recognise space in the universe for that which we cannot put into words and that which we cannot quantify. To me, it's an exceptionally rich place. Perhaps it can also be made a haven for ignorance and those that would abuse to trust of others, but that does not invalidate it in my mind because the vastness of it far outweighs that narrowness people can find within it.

At any rate, it was quite a powerful thing for me to hear, but, as I said, I'm curious about other people's reaction to it.

What say you?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Yes! You said it well, it is an exceptionally rich place. A true treasure in Heaven as Christians say, an abundance of the riches of the highest order. Not material, but the purest inspiration for all kinds of work. It is perhaps the greatest joy to be engaged in a work that involves bringing ideas from there to here, as Terrence McKenna would say.

I am quite surprised about this Colbert guy. I can't keep up with American media and I mostly don't remember who's the good, bad and ugly. Specially, who's the insane evil guy on Fox News. But I can tell you that, Colbert, he's up to something. You're up to something. I am up to something. And there are many, many more people like us. Just look at this man, Miloslav Kral. He is a scientist in his 60's. He has the titles of a docent, engineer and Candidate of Sciences. Studied philosophy as well. Lectured on cybernetics and their social application. (Hint! Hint!) Worked on democratization before Soviets came in with the tanks. Worked wit the dissidents. Worked in a Cabinet for research of science technology and the Academy of sciences. Lectured on theory of science and technology and the direction of civilization.

He's not stupid, crazy, ignorant nor lying, neither am I. He just had the same experience as me, the very same I'd say. He's not Christian, just a little limited by the Christian vocabulary of faith and God. But that's not something that could put off anyone with the common experience. I hope we're gonna see some science from this guy. When I meet someone like that, things happen, he speaks and when I think something is missing from his speech, it's right the next thing he adds. Maybe I should write him. I believe this transpersonal, transcendental psychology will be a very important field in the future. Some inklings of it might be found in Jungianism and the book by J. M. Cohen, The Common Experience.

I am still under the influence of the common experience, even as I write, specially as I write. It always makes me a little high, with spine straight and buzzing as a coil under high voltage.

By the way, Ghost, I just find it a little strange you use Peace, Love and Empathy as greetings or signature. Me, I prefer to reserve such profound words for other occasions, I prefer some bland formal greetings for common occasions or none at all. I'm not sure what you want to express, probably not that you feel that way all the time. Sometimes I do, but then I say so in the main post.

As for agnosticism, I've been called agnostic pantheist and... why not? Agnostic means I don't know about the god. Pantheist means he'd better be at least as great as the universe itself, or I want my money back Smile

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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