The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
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23-10-2012, 12:08 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2012 12:13 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:58 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(22-10-2012 11:33 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts date to about the 2nd century BCE

All of the examples you gave are much later than the Bible in saying that the earth is round. By the way, it was in Isaiah 40:22, which was written in 732 B.C.E., not that you asked.

So, then logically your argument is dependent upon accurately dating the aforementioned manuscript. Of course, doing this has nothing to do with the dating of the oldest surviving Hebrew manuscripts, even that date is pushing your argument to its limits.

By the way, I do actually appreciate that you have at least done some research, given it some thought. A more acceptable example of a thinking atheist than I have seen here so far.

The word used in hebrew there is חוג

Which means ring, circle. Not sphere.
http://en.glosbe.com/he/en/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%92

It is also probably worth noting that neither the LXX nor the Vulgate translate these terms with words meaning "ball, sphere" even though such were available.

This then also fits with what we know of ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Canaanite cosmologies. Against this background it certainly doesn't seem that Isaiah or Job are sufficiently unambiguous to compel someone holding such a view to believe the Earth was spherical and so any person in the ancient world hearing these words would simply assume that their flat-Earth (although possibly spherical cosmos) view was not being challenged.

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23-10-2012, 12:22 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(23-10-2012 12:08 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  The word used in hebrew there is חוג

Which means ring, circle. Not sphere.
http://en.glosbe.com/he/en/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%92

It is also probably worth noting that neither the LXX nor the Vulgate translate these terms with words meaning "ball, sphere" even though such were available.

This then also fits with what we know of ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Canaanite cosmologies. Against this background it certainly doesn't seem that Isaiah or Job are sufficiently unambiguous to compel someone holding such a view to believe the Earth was spherical and so any person in the ancient world hearing these words would simply assume that their flat-Earth (although possibly spherical cosmos) view was not being challenged.

The ancient Hebrew word chugh can be translated as sphere (See Davidson’s Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon), circle, globe. . . only a spherical object would appear as a circle from every angle of view, for example, from God's perspective looking down. A flat disk would more often appear as an ellipse, rather than a circle.
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23-10-2012, 12:44 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2012 05:35 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(23-10-2012 12:22 AM)The Theist Wrote:  
(23-10-2012 12:08 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  The word used in hebrew there is חוג

Which means ring, circle. Not sphere.
http://en.glosbe.com/he/en/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%92

It is also probably worth noting that neither the LXX nor the Vulgate translate these terms with words meaning "ball, sphere" even though such were available.

This then also fits with what we know of ancient Egyptian, Mesopotamian, and Canaanite cosmologies. Against this background it certainly doesn't seem that Isaiah or Job are sufficiently unambiguous to compel someone holding such a view to believe the Earth was spherical and so any person in the ancient world hearing these words would simply assume that their flat-Earth (although possibly spherical cosmos) view was not being challenged.

The ancient Hebrew word chugh can be translated as sphere (See Davidson’s Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon), circle, globe. . . only a spherical object would appear as a circle from every angle of view, for example, from God's perspective looking down. A flat disk would more often appear as an ellipse, rather than a circle.

Hahaha The latter would suppose god was look at his flat earth from an angle.

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23-10-2012, 06:46 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:00 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(22-10-2012 10:38 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I think you don't even realize how arrogant it is to claim to be able speak for the majority of atheists despite having demonstrated that you have no clue about the subject at all.

First of all my observations on atheism are based upon 27 years as an atheist, 46 years of association with family and friends, 99% of who are atheists, and 16 years of debate and discussion with atheists online.

If the subject you are talking about isn't atheism, but science, I have truthfully told you that I have never had much interest in the subject, even as an atheist, but that isn't exclusive to theism. I have told you I don't think evolution is proven scientific fact, but rather a failed metaphysical experiment.

The evidence of evolution is overwhelming. Your lack of knowledge of science may prevent you from understanding the evidence.

Quote:I have also said that I don't think the Bible threatens science or science threatens the Bible, and I have told you personally that I'm willing to listen to your criticism of 100 reasons why evolution is stupid.

So quite your fucking whining.

(22-10-2012 10:38 PM)Vosur Wrote:  My version of that statement would actually be: "I don't believe in gods (supernatural beings), because there is no evidence for their existence."

That, to me, is a great deal more rational than atheism as it is commonly defined.

That definition is the most common one used around here. What definition do you use?

Quote:Of course, I have also said on this forum that science can't test the supernatural. On a more personal level, how would you define supernatural? Do you believe in the possible existence of extraterrestrials?

How does supernatural relate to extraterrestrials?

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23-10-2012, 06:49 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 10:22 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(22-10-2012 05:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  How is it irrational to not believe that for which there is no evidence? Gods, faeries, unicorns, gnomes, orbiting teapots, etc.

Very simple. You don't know what one is.

I don't know what what 'one' is?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-10-2012, 07:34 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(23-10-2012 12:22 AM)The Theist Wrote:  from God's perspective looking down.

Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
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23-10-2012, 07:47 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
So, if I'm to understand this right, the Theist believes there are truly multiple gods?
He's a pan-theist?

If so, how do you know Yahweh/Jehovah is the "true" god?
Or even if he is supreme right now, one of these other supernatural deities won't take over? Maybe he didn't create the universe, but took over the one who did and is taking credit for it.
This sounds more like ancient Greek mythology than Christian mythology. Think of all the poor Christians who are misusing the word "god" and think Jehovah is up there all alone in his deity-ness.

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23-10-2012, 07:50 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2012 07:55 AM by Vosur.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(23-10-2012 07:47 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  So, if I'm to understand this right, the Theist believes there are truly multiple gods?
He's a pan-theist?
A pantheist is someone who, for example, believes that the Universe/Nature and god are one and the same. If The Theist believes in several gods, he is either a polytheist or a henotheist.

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23-10-2012, 08:00 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(23-10-2012 07:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(23-10-2012 07:47 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  So, if I'm to understand this right, the Theist believes there are truly multiple gods?
He's a pan-theist?
A pantheist is someone who, for example, believes that the Universe/Nature and god are one and the same. If The Theist believes in several gods, he is either a polytheist or a henotheist.
Ah, cool. Thanks for the correction.

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23-10-2012, 08:03 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(23-10-2012 08:00 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  
(23-10-2012 07:50 AM)Vosur Wrote:  A pantheist is someone who, for example, believes that the Universe/Nature and god are one and the same. If The Theist believes in several gods, he is either a polytheist or a henotheist.
Ah, cool. Thanks for the correction.
You're welcome. Smartass

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