The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
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21-10-2012, 05:38 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
The Theist Wrote:Examples of GOD

Does she believe in God?
I pray to God that no one was seriously injured in the accident.
the gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt
a myth about the god of war
an offering for the gods
a professor who was regarded as a kind of god
a guitar god like Jimi Hendrix

Atheists are a peculiar thinking people. If you try and define atheism they will angrily tell you that to be an atheist simply means that one doesn't believe in the existence of a god or gods. If you tell them that you were once an atheist they will angrily tell you that you must not have been a "real" atheist. This has happened to me dozens of times.

If you tell an atheist that according to the Bible and a good modern dictionary a god can be anything or anyone they will say you are distorting definitions to suit your own paradigm and your are intellectually dishonest or disingenuous. The fact is, atheists tend to be extremely emotionally fixed upon their idealism, even more so than the religious, and they tend to be grossly ignorant of the Bible because they oppose modern day Christianity and to a lesser extent, any other theology.

This is exactly what I have been arguing on the Ignosticism thread, and you are 100% correct on it. I do not believe in your God however, nor any other god that is worshiped by any religion that I've known. Trying to convert people or save souls will not win you any favors on this forum. You have been warned.

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21-10-2012, 05:52 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
Quote:a guitar god like Jimi Hendrix
Seriously? I think most people understand the phrase above means "he was a really good and innovative guitar player," not that he was an all powerful supreme being or something. If I think Jimi Hendrix was a good musician, I can still be an atheist. Metaphors, people... Same goes for the professor example. That means the professor was respected and people valued what he/she said. That has nothing at all to do with the other examples.

These are not "examples of god" as you claim. These are examples of word usage, including the word "god" being used metaphorically. Words and symbols can have more than one use/meaning.
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21-10-2012, 06:16 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
Supreme
1. Dominant, having power over all others.
2. At the greatest, most excellent, extreme,
most superior, highest, or utmost.

Lol there it is The Theists version of god.

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21-10-2012, 06:19 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(20-10-2012 07:56 PM)The Theist Wrote:  1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Wikipedia Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Merriam Webster Definition of GOD
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind 2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality 3 : a person or thing of supreme value 4 : a powerful ruler See god defined for English-language learners »See god defined for kids »

Examples of GOD

Does she believe in God?
I pray to God that no one was seriously injured in the accident.
the gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt
a myth about the god of war
an offering for the gods
a professor who was regarded as a kind of god
a guitar god like Jimi Hendrix

Atheists are a peculiar thinking people. If you try and define atheism they will angrily tell you that to be an atheist simply means that one doesn't believe in the existence of a god or gods. If you tell them that you were once an atheist they will angrily tell you that you must not have been a "real" atheist. This has happened to me dozens of times.

If you tell an atheist that according to the Bible and a good modern dictionary a god can be anything or anyone they will say you are distorting definitions to suit your own paradigm and your are intellectually dishonest or disingenuous. The fact is, atheists tend to be extremely emotionally fixed upon their idealism, even more so than the religious, and they tend to be grossly ignorant of the Bible because they oppose modern day Christianity and to a lesser extent, any other theology.

This is my attempt to educate the atheists on what exactly a god, or deity is. God, Gods, Goddesses. The primary argument is that atheism is the disbelief of gods, it denies the existence of gods. The methodology consists of nothing more than the practical common usage of the word God, but no such distinction within the basic tenant of atheism is given, besides, the common usage of a word doesn't negate the other possible uses. The other defense is that the other gods are metaphorical. This is false, because all gods are equally metaphorical in application. The very root of the Hebrew and Greek words for gods indicates this.

What Is A God

The Hebrew word El and variations of it are translated into the English word God. It means "Mighty; Strong." The Greek word theos is the equivalent, and was used to translate El, Elohim, etc. in the Greek Septuagint of the Hebrew scriptures. When the Hebrew El appears with the definite article ha (ha El, literally meaning "the God" in the Bible it was in reference strictly to Jehovah, but the various terms used without the definite article may be applied to Jehovah, to other gods, to men.

Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God [Hebrew El Gibbohr], Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy of Jesus Christ, who was a man, and is called a mighty God.

Psalm 82:1, 6 God [Hebrew Elohim] is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods [Hebrew elohim] he judges: "I myself have said, 'You are gods [Hebrew elohim], And all of you are sons of the Most High.'"

Here Jehovah God calls the human judges of Israel, some of whom were faithful and some of whom were not, gods.

John 10:34, 35 Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods [Greek theoi, Hebrew elohim]?'" If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified,

Here Jesus is faced with the same sort of religiosity that the modern day atheist, under the influence of the modern day misguided theist, displays. A poor understanding and almost superstitious definition of what it means to be a god. He corrects them with their own sacred text, Psalm 82:1, 6, given above.

Exodus 4:16; 7:1 And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God [Hebrew lelohim] to him. Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God [Hebrew elohim] to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet."

Here again Jehovah God refers to a man, Moses, as an appointed God to Pharaoh and to Aaron. All of these verses of men being gods simply mean that they are mighty, strong. Because that is what the word god means. Anything or anyone who is attributed might or is venerated by another. So Jehovah was the God of Israel, meaning he was mighty to Israel, he was venerated by Israel. Dagon was the god [elohim] to the Philistines. (1 Samuel 5:7)

The problem is that atheists as well as most theists see this as some sort of metaphoric distinction, and that isn't the case. They see the one true God negating the others as false and that isn't necessarily so. Some gods of the nations were "valueless gods" in Jehovah's eyes and supposedly to the faithful Israelites, but that didn't mean that all of the other gods were false, or even that any of them were any less of a god in the eyes of the beholder, because that is what a God is. Something or someone with might or strength in the eyes of the beholder.

Why The Confusion?

Jeremiah 23:27
They are thinking of making my people forget my name by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Baal.

There is some confusion, though note that the above definition of a god from a modern dictionary is really in line with what I'm saying a god is. The confusion is caused by the superstitious removal of Jehovah God's name from the scriptures by the Sopherim. The Sopherim, or scribes, changed 134 passages in the Hebrew texts to read Adhonai [Generic term LORD] in place of the tetragrammaton, YHWH, Jehovah God's personal name. They did this in a superstitious attempt to prevent the common man from profaning the name. So when you see LORD in all upper case it is where the name has been removed.

Afterwards, the generic title of God became somewhat distorted into being applied exclusively to the God of Israel. The God of the Bible. This is the equivalent of saying you don't believe in man because Adam probably didn't exist.

1. Don't quote the bible to atheists to make your point. Would you be convinced by the words of the Q'uran? Of course not. We treat the bible the same way that you treat the Q'uran.

2. Please don't stereotype atheists. Even if it has been your experience, for example, that atheists get angry when you claim that you were once an atheist, it's not true of all of us. And what a silly example! Of course you were an atheist! A belief in a god is something that you have to gain, so we were all born atheists. It cuts both ways, you know. My family doesn't believe that I was a "real" Christian, despite their thinking that I was for 20 years or so (when I actually was) before I became an atheist.

3. You're being equivocal with "god". Just because we don't believe in any gods doesn't mean that we don't believe in anything. Of course we believe in "guitar gods", because that's not the relevant definition of a god in the religious/non-religious sense. I imagine, if you are like most Christians, you believe that there are people who call themselves "Christians" but who you don't actually think are. Our insistence upon their fitting the definition (which would include people like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses) would be analogous to what you're doing here.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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21-10-2012, 06:31 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
The irrational nature of thinking rationally.
Atheism. - We don't buy into bullshit claims that aren't supported by evidence

I wish i could have read your post but i dont own boots high enough to wade through that much bull.

TLDR

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-10-2012, 12:12 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
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22-10-2012, 05:47 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(20-10-2012 07:56 PM)The Theist Wrote:  1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even though there are those who are called "gods," whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many "gods" and many "lords," there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Wikipedia Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

Merriam Webster Definition of GOD
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind 2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality 3 : a person or thing of supreme value 4 : a powerful ruler See god defined for English-language learners »See god defined for kids »

Examples of GOD

Does she believe in God?
I pray to God that no one was seriously injured in the accident.
the gods and goddesses of ancient Egypt
a myth about the god of war
an offering for the gods
a professor who was regarded as a kind of god
a guitar god like Jimi Hendrix

Atheists are a peculiar thinking people. If you try and define atheism they will angrily tell you that to be an atheist simply means that one doesn't believe in the existence of a god or gods. If you tell them that you were once an atheist they will angrily tell you that you must not have been a "real" atheist. This has happened to me dozens of times.

If you tell an atheist that according to the Bible and a good modern dictionary a god can be anything or anyone they will say you are distorting definitions to suit your own paradigm and your are intellectually dishonest or disingenuous. The fact is, atheists tend to be extremely emotionally fixed upon their idealism, even more so than the religious, and they tend to be grossly ignorant of the Bible because they oppose modern day Christianity and to a lesser extent, any other theology.

This is my attempt to educate the atheists on what exactly a god, or deity is. God, Gods, Goddesses. The primary argument is that atheism is the disbelief of gods, it denies the existence of gods. The methodology consists of nothing more than the practical common usage of the word God, but no such distinction within the basic tenant of atheism is given, besides, the common usage of a word doesn't negate the other possible uses. The other defense is that the other gods are metaphorical. This is false, because all gods are equally metaphorical in application. The very root of the Hebrew and Greek words for gods indicates this.

What Is A God

The Hebrew word El and variations of it are translated into the English word God. It means "Mighty; Strong." The Greek word theos is the equivalent, and was used to translate El, Elohim, etc. in the Greek Septuagint of the Hebrew scriptures. When the Hebrew El appears with the definite article ha (ha El, literally meaning "the God" in the Bible it was in reference strictly to Jehovah, but the various terms used without the definite article may be applied to Jehovah, to other gods, to men.

Isaiah 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God [Hebrew El Gibbohr], Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy of Jesus Christ, who was a man, and is called a mighty God.

Psalm 82:1, 6 God [Hebrew Elohim] is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; In the middle of the gods [Hebrew elohim] he judges: "I myself have said, 'You are gods [Hebrew elohim], And all of you are sons of the Most High.'"

Here Jehovah God calls the human judges of Israel, some of whom were faithful and some of whom were not, gods.

John 10:34, 35 Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said: "You are gods [Greek theoi, Hebrew elohim]?'" If he called 'gods' those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified,

Here Jesus is faced with the same sort of religiosity that the modern day atheist, under the influence of the modern day misguided theist, displays. A poor understanding and almost superstitious definition of what it means to be a god. He corrects them with their own sacred text, Psalm 82:1, 6, given above.

Exodus 4:16; 7:1 And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God [Hebrew lelohim] to him. Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: "See, I have made you God [Hebrew elohim] to Pharaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet."

Here again Jehovah God refers to a man, Moses, as an appointed God to Pharaoh and to Aaron. All of these verses of men being gods simply mean that they are mighty, strong. Because that is what the word god means. Anything or anyone who is attributed might or is venerated by another. So Jehovah was the God of Israel, meaning he was mighty to Israel, he was venerated by Israel. Dagon was the god [elohim] to the Philistines. (1 Samuel 5:7)

The problem is that atheists as well as most theists see this as some sort of metaphoric distinction, and that isn't the case. They see the one true God negating the others as false and that isn't necessarily so. Some gods of the nations were "valueless gods" in Jehovah's eyes and supposedly to the faithful Israelites, but that didn't mean that all of the other gods were false, or even that any of them were any less of a god in the eyes of the beholder, because that is what a God is. Something or someone with might or strength in the eyes of the beholder.

Why The Confusion?

Jeremiah 23:27
They are thinking of making my people forget my name by means of their dreams that they keep relating each one to the other, just as their fathers forgot my name by means of Baal.

There is some confusion, though note that the above definition of a god from a modern dictionary is really in line with what I'm saying a god is. The confusion is caused by the superstitious removal of Jehovah God's name from the scriptures by the Sopherim. The Sopherim, or scribes, changed 134 passages in the Hebrew texts to read Adhonai [Generic term LORD] in place of the tetragrammaton, YHWH, Jehovah God's personal name. They did this in a superstitious attempt to prevent the common man from profaning the name. So when you see LORD in all upper case it is where the name has been removed.

Afterwards, the generic title of God became somewhat distorted into being applied exclusively to the God of Israel. The God of the Bible. This is the equivalent of saying you don't believe in man because Adam probably didn't exist.

How is it irrational to not believe that for which there is no evidence? Gods, faeries, unicorns, gnomes, orbiting teapots, etc.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-10-2012, 10:15 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(20-10-2012 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  I've read your post but I'm finding it hard to see your point on how Atheism is ever irrational, or any evidence to back the title up...can you enlighten me?

I think that atheism is irrational because it only operates with the guise of reason. An atheist thinks like this, and I speak from personal experience having lived most of my life as an atheist and dealing with thousands of atheists in off as well as online, this is how they think:

"I don't believe in God, because I don't believe in fairy tales with magic men in the sky who tell me what to do. The world isn't flat, it wasn't created in 6 days, it isn't 6,000 years old."

All of this is an irrational opinion based upon the misrepresentation of the Bible by thousands of years of superstitious religious dogma.

You can say it can only be rational to think that way, but history indicates otherwise. At one time whales and squid were thought of as being flights of fancy, superstitious fear. I know that is cliche but my point is that it isn't rational to dismiss something out of complete ignorance. A rational examination has to take place. If you rationally examine the Bible, and I don't mean just read it, I mean study the language especially, all of what the atheist thinks of the Bible as given above, and most of it in fact, is blatantly false. That doesn't leave them with a rational position.

(20-10-2012 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  As for the OP, I'm not seeing your point that atheism is irrational. I'd say the most rational POV on gods is that, unless evidence of their existence becomes available, it's better to withhold belief. If you don't need evidence to belief stuff, your head is going to be full of garbage. That's why I think atheism is rational: it depends on belief.

But what we are talking about is a simple definition of god. The atheist, in order just to appear logical, has to limit and distort a very simple meaning, not only of the word "god(s)" but also "atheism."

You say you don't there is no evidence of gods, but there is plenty of it. It is your limited definition of the word god, as only applying to the supernatural, that evidence is more difficult to achieve. If I show you a statue of Dagon there is evidence of the god Dagon.

Oh, well, the atheists say, that's just a statue, Dagon didn't really exist. But the statue is the god. So the atheist says oh, only in some metaphorical or other application, so you show them Tammuz and they say, oh, he couldn't be a god because he was a man, and you explain to them that the Sumerians deified their kings upon death, and they say that is the same as Dagon, then, not a real god. The atheists only deny the existence of gods that are supernatural?

Where is that implied? The atheist has to be completely irrational about the very simple definition of god, according to the Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin and English.

(20-10-2012 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  You seem to be saying if they believe in them, they're real to that person. Well, a hallucination is real to a schizophrenic, they experience it as real. That doesn't make it objectively real to the rest of us. Same with gods. Just because a person worships something and "feels" that it's real doesn't mean it's objectively real, and it's still only real to that person for so long as they believe in it.

If I ask you who was Zues what do you tell me? Tammuz? Moses? The Judges of Israel? These were all called gods by the Bible.

Would you say there are no Lords?

(20-10-2012 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  Well, maybe it's wrong in the sense of Christian beliefs, but it doesn't apply to atheists who don't believe in ANY gods.

What does that mean, "don't believe in"?

Haven't seen? Don't understand?

Define god in your own terms.
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22-10-2012, 10:21 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(21-10-2012 06:19 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  1. Don't quote the bible to atheists to make your point. Would you be convinced by the words of the Q'uran? Of course not. We treat the bible the same way that you treat the Q'uran.

Would and have. I have published several translations of the Qur'an, read it many times and am convinced what it is.

(21-10-2012 06:19 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  2. Please don't stereotype atheists. Even if it has been your experience, for example, that atheists get angry when you claim that you were once an atheist, it's not true of all of us. And what a silly example! Of course you were an atheist! A belief in a god is something that you have to gain, so we were all born atheists. It cuts both ways, you know. My family doesn't believe that I was a "real" Christian, despite their thinking that I was for 20 years or so (when I actually was) before I became an atheist.

I was 27 before I became a believer.

(21-10-2012 06:19 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  3. You're being equivocal with "god". Just because we don't believe in any gods doesn't mean that we don't believe in anything. Of course we believe in "guitar gods", because that's not the relevant definition of a god in the religious/non-religious sense. I imagine, if you are like most Christians, you believe that there are people who call themselves "Christians" but who you don't actually think are. Our insistence upon their fitting the definition (which would include people like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses) would be analogous to what you're doing here.

Pointless.
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22-10-2012, 10:22 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 05:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  How is it irrational to not believe that for which there is no evidence? Gods, faeries, unicorns, gnomes, orbiting teapots, etc.

Very simple. You don't know what one is.
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