The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
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22-10-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(21-10-2012 06:16 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Supreme
1. Dominant, having power over all others.
2. At the greatest, most excellent, extreme,
most superior, highest, or utmost.

Lol there it is The Theists version of god.

If you ask me which gods of the Bible do I believe in, I would say Satan, Jehovah, Jesus, Moses, Tammuz, The Judges Of Israel (some faithful some not) and the Angels (also some faithful and some not). Those are just the ones I believe actually existed.

I also believe Dagon, Molech, Baal, Astoreth, Casper and probably a half dozen or so I can't recall offhand were gods even though they don't exist.
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22-10-2012, 10:27 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(20-10-2012 09:56 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:But you are right that I don't have a clue about the subject of evolution.

And WE'RE the ignorant ones?

lolwut?

Son, even the Pope, your leader, recognizes that evolution is a thing now.

Yeah. Ignorant. The Pope is most definitely not my leader. He is the leader of a bunch of child raping idiots who believes in lots of pagan bullshit myths and not the Bible.
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22-10-2012, 10:33 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(20-10-2012 10:03 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Because we require more then a shitty book written by half retarded farmers in the middle east a couple thousand years ago that has no supporting evidence to explain to us certain things in the universe??
lolwut?
I don't see how that makes us ignorant. Quite the opposite in fact.

Okay. How many thousands of years before science did the Bible say the earth was round and hanging upon nothing, describe the hydrological cycle . . . The Bible said that the division between day and night was caused by the luminaries when science thought that it was caused by vapors, from the sky for day and from the earth for night.

You probably think that the Bible says the world is flat, and the church was in agreement the Bible with their dispute with Galileo, and you are wrong. Your thinking on the Bible is in the dark ages. Literally.
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22-10-2012, 10:38 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 10:15 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(20-10-2012 08:17 PM)amyb Wrote:  I've read your post but I'm finding it hard to see your point on how Atheism is ever irrational, or any evidence to back the title up...can you enlighten me?

I think that atheism is irrational because it only operates with the guise of reason. An atheist thinks like this, and I speak from personal experience having lived most of my life as an atheist and dealing with thousands of atheists in off as well as online, this is how they think:

"I don't believe in God, because I don't believe in fairy tales with magic men in the sky who tell me what to do. The world isn't flat, it wasn't created in 6 days, it isn't 6,000 years old."
I think you don't even realize how arrogant it is to claim to be able speak for the majority of atheists despite having demonstrated that you have no clue about the subject at all. My version of that statement would actually be:

"I don't believe in gods (supernatural beings), because there is no evidence for their existence."

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22-10-2012, 10:51 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(20-10-2012 09:43 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  Of course he doesn't JWs are afraid of science.

As I've said repeatedly, I personally never had much interest in science, not even as an atheist. I'm not a JW, but lets let them answer your uninformed accusation themselves.

WOLF-EKKEHARD LÖNNIG

PROFILE: Over the past 28 years, I have done scientific work dealing with genetic mutation in plants. For 21 of those years, I have been employed by the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research, in Cologne, Germany. For almost three decades, I have also served as an elder in a Christian congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

My empirical research in genetics and my studies of biological subjects such as physiology and morphology bring me face-to-face with the enormous and often unfathomable complexities of life. My study of these topics has reinforced my conviction that life, even the most basic forms of life, must have an intelligent origin.
The scientific community is well aware of the complexity found in life. But these fascinating facts are generally presented in a strong evolutionary context. In my mind, however, the arguments against the Bible account of creation fall apart when subjected to scientific scrutiny. I have examined such arguments over decades. After much careful study of living things and consideration of the way the laws governing the universe seem perfectly adjusted so that life on earth can exist, I am compelled to believe in a Creator.

BYRON LEON MEADOWS

PROFILE: I live in the United States and work at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in the field of laser physics. Presently I am involved in the development of technology to improve the ability to monitor global climate, weather, and other planetary phenomena. I am an elder in a congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the Kilmarnock, Virginia, area.

In my research I often work with the principles of physics. I seek to understand how and why certain things happen. In my field of study, I find clear evidence that everything I observe has a cause. I believe that it is scientifically reasonable to accept that God is the original cause of all things in nature. The laws of nature are too stable for me not to believe that they were put in place by an Organizer, a Creator.

If this conclusion is that obvious, why do so many scientists believe in evolution? Might it be that evolutionists look at their evidence with presupposed conclusions? This is not unheard of among scientists. But observation, no matter how convincing, does not presuppose conclusion. For example, a person researching laser physics could insist that light is a wave, similar to a sound wave, because light often behaves like a wave. However, his conclusion would be incomplete because the evidence also indicates that light behaves as a group of particles, known as photons. Similarly, those who insist that evolution is a fact base their conclusions on only part of the evidence, and they allow their own presupposed conclusions to influence the way that they view the evidence.

I find it amazing that anyone accepts the theory of evolution as fact when evolutionary “experts” themselves argue over how it is supposed to have happened. For example, would you accept arithmetic as a proved fact if some experts said that 2 plus 2 equals 4, while other experts said it was believed to total 3 or possibly 6? If the role of science is to accept only what can be proved, tested, and reproduced, then the theory that all life evolved from a common ancestor is not a scientific fact.

KENNETH LLOYD TANAKA

PROFILE: I am a geologist presently employed by the U.S. Geological Survey in Flagstaff, Arizona. For almost three decades, I have participated in scientific research in various fields of geology, including planetary geology. Dozens of my research articles and geologic maps of Mars have been published in accredited scientific journals. As one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I spend about 70 hours every month promoting Bible reading.

I was taught to believe in evolution, but I could not accept that the immense energy required to form the universe could have originated without a powerful Creator. Something cannot come from nothing. I also find a strong argument in favor of a Creator in the Bible itself. This book gives numerous examples of scientific facts in my field of expertise, such as that the earth is spherical in shape and hangs “upon nothing.” (Job 26:7; Isaiah 40:22) These realities were written in the Bible long before they were proved by human investigation.

Think of the way we are made. We possess sensory perception, self-awareness, intelligent thought, communication abilities, and feelings. In particular, we can experience, appreciate, and express love. Evolution cannot explain how these wonderful human qualities came to be.

Ask yourself, ‘How reliable and credible are the sources of information used to support evolution?’ The geologic record is incomplete, complex, and confusing. Evolutionists have failed to demonstrate proposed evolutionary processes in the laboratory with the use of scientific methodologies. And while scientists generally employ good research techniques to acquire data, they are often influenced by selfish motives when interpreting their findings. Scientists have been known to promote their own thinking when the data are inconclusive or contradictory. Their careers and their own feelings of self-worth play important roles.

Both as a scientist and as a Bible student, I search for the whole truth, which reconciles all known facts and observations to reach the most accurate understanding. To me, belief in the Creator makes the most sense.

PAULA KINCHELOE

PROFILE: I have several years of experience as a researcher in the fields of cell and molecular biology and microbiology. I am presently employed by Emory University, in Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. I also work as a volunteer Bible teacher in the Russian-speaking community.

As part of my education in biology, I spent four years focusing on just the cell and its components. The more I learned about DNA, RNA, proteins, and metabolic pathways, the more amazed I became with the complexity, organization, and precision involved. And while I was impressed with how much man has learned about the cell, I was even more amazed at how much there is yet to learn. The obvious design evident in the cell is one reason I believe in God.

My study of the Bible has revealed who the Creator is—namely, Jehovah God. I am convinced that he is not only an intelligent Designer but also a kind and loving Father who cares for me. The Bible explains the purpose of life and provides the hope of a happy future.

Young ones in school who are being taught evolution may be unsure of what to believe. This can be a confusing time for them. If they believe in God, this is a test of faith. But they can meet that test by examining the many amazing things in nature that surround us and by continuing to grow in knowledge of the Creator and his qualities. I have personally done this and have concluded that the Bible’s account of creation is accurate and does not conflict with true science.

ENRIQUE HERNÁNDEZ-LEMUS

PROFILE: I am a full-time minister of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I am also a theoretical physicist working at the National University of Mexico. My current work involves finding a thermodynamically feasible explanation for the phenomenon known as the gravothermal catastrophe, which is a mechanism of star growth. I have also worked with complexity in DNA sequences.

Life is simply too complicated to have arisen by chance. For example, consider the vast amount of information contained in the DNA molecule. The mathematical probability of the random generation of a single chromosome is less than 1 in 9 trillion, an event so unlikely that it can be considered impossible. I think it is nonsense to believe that unintelligent forces could create not just a single chromosome but all the amazing complexity present in living beings.

In addition, when I study the highly complex behavior of matter, from the microscopic level to the movement of giant stellar clouds through space, I am impressed by the elegant simplicity of the laws governing their motion. To me, these laws imply more than the work of a Master Mathematician—they are like the signature of a Master Artist.

People are often surprised when I tell them that I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Sometimes they ask me how I can believe in God. Their reaction is understandable, since most religions do not encourage their believers to ask for proof of what they are taught or to research their beliefs. However, the Bible encourages us to use our “thinking ability.” (Proverbs 3:21) All the evidence of intelligent design in nature, together with evidence from the Bible, convinces me that God not only exists but is also interested in our prayers.
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22-10-2012, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2012 10:57 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 10:33 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(20-10-2012 10:03 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Because we require more then a shitty book written by half retarded farmers in the middle east a couple thousand years ago that has no supporting evidence to explain to us certain things in the universe??
lolwut?
I don't see how that makes us ignorant. Quite the opposite in fact.

Okay. How many thousands of years before science did the Bible say the earth was round and hanging upon nothing, describe the hydrological cycle . . . The Bible said that the division between day and night was caused by the luminaries when science thought that it was caused by vapors, from the sky for day and from the earth for night.

You probably think that the Bible says the world is flat, and the church was in agreement the Bible with their dispute with Galileo, and you are wrong. Your thinking on the Bible is in the dark ages. Literally.

רקיע noun
sky
canopy
expanse
heaven

The Greeks and the Egyptians figured it out before the hebrews did.

Also if the bible claims the world is round why not use the words in genesis?

כדור

generation, ball, bullet, sphere, pill, globe


נשף

ball, party, soiree, fete, darkness


תפוח

apple, swelling, pile, ball, heap


כדורית

pellet, globule, cell, ball, spherule, pilule


בל

ball


כופת

bale, ball, block

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22-10-2012, 11:00 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 10:38 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I think you don't even realize how arrogant it is to claim to be able speak for the majority of atheists despite having demonstrated that you have no clue about the subject at all.

First of all my observations on atheism are based upon 27 years as an atheist, 46 years of association with family and friends, 99% of who are atheists, and 16 years of debate and discussion with atheists online.

If the subject you are talking about isn't atheism, but science, I have truthfully told you that I have never had much interest in the subject, even as an atheist, but that isn't exclusive to theism. I have told you I don't think evolution is proven scientific fact, but rather a failed metaphysical experiment.

I have also said that I don't think the Bible threatens science or science threatens the Bible, and I have told you personally that I'm willing to listen to your criticism of 100 reasons why evolution is stupid.

So quite your fucking whining.

(22-10-2012 10:38 PM)Vosur Wrote:  My version of that statement would actually be: "I don't believe in gods (supernatural beings), because there is no evidence for their existence."

That, to me, is a great deal more rational than atheism as it is commonly defined.

Of course, I have also said on this forum that science can't test the supernatural. On a more personal level, how would you define supernatural? Do you believe in the possible existence of extraterrestrials?
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22-10-2012, 11:09 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 10:52 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  רקיע noun
sky
canopy
expanse
heaven

The Greeks and the Egyptians figured it out before the hebrews did.

Genesis was probably completed in the year 1513 B.C.E., when did the Greeks and Egyptians figure it out?

(22-10-2012 10:52 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Also if the bible claims the world is round why not use the words in genesis?

Irrelevant. There is no words to indicate the Bible taught the Earth to be flat. Oh, and, uh, those words - what were they in the Greek and the Latin?
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22-10-2012, 11:12 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2012 11:15 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:09 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(22-10-2012 10:52 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  רקיע noun
sky
canopy
expanse
heaven

The Greeks and the Egyptians figured it out before the hebrews did.

Genesis was probably completed in the year 1513 B.C.E., when did the Greeks and Egyptians figure it out?

(22-10-2012 10:52 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Also if the bible claims the world is round why not use the words in genesis?

Irrelevant. There is no words to indicate the Bible taught the Earth to be flat. Oh, and, uh, those words - what were they in the Greek and the Latin?

Shamayim (ם‎שמי‎), the Hebrew word for "heaven", denotes a component of the cosmos, the other elements being the earth (erets) and the underworld (sheol). Shamayim is the dwelling place of God and other heavenly beings and, in post-Hebrew Bible literature (including the Christian New Testament), the abode of the righteous dead.

The Biblical authors pictured the earth as a flat disk floating in water, with the heavens above and the underworld below. The raqiya (firmament), a solid inverted bowl above the earth, coloured blue by the cosmic ocean, kept the waters above the earth from flooding the world. From about 300 BCE the three-tiered cosmos was largely replaced by a newer Greek model which saw the earth as a sphere at the centre of a set of seven concentric heavens, one for each visible planet plus the sun and moon, with the realm of God in an eighth and highest heaven, but although several Jewish works from this period have multiple heavens, as do some New Testament works, none has exactly the formal Greek system.

Spherical earth.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

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22-10-2012, 11:16 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
The Vault of Heaven

The vault of heaven is a crucial concept. The word “firmament” appears in the King James version of the Old Testament 17 times, and in each case it is translated from the Hebrew word raqiya, which meant the visible vault of the sky. The word raqiya comes from riqqua, meaning “beaten out.” In ancient times, brass objects were either cast in the form required or beaten into shape on an anvil. A good craftsman could beat a lump of cast brass into a thin bowl. Thus, Elihu asks Job, “Can you beat out [raqa] the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal (Job 37:18)?”

Elihu's question shows that the Hebrews considered the vault of heaven a solid, physical object. Such a large dome would be a tremendous feat of engineering. The Hebrews (and supposedly Yahweh Himself) considered it exactly that, and this point is hammered home by five scriptures:

Job 9:8, “...who by himself spread out the heavens [shamayim]...”

Psalm 19:1, “The heavens [shamayim] tell out the glory of God, the vault of heaven [raqiya] reveals his handiwork.”

Psalm 102:25, “...the heavens [shamayim] were thy handiwork.”

Isaiah 45:12, “I, with my own hands, stretched out the heavens [shamayim] and caused all their host to shine...”

Isaiah 48:13, “...with my right hand I formed the expanse of the sky [shamayim]...”

If these verses are about a mere illusion of a vault, they are surely much ado about nothing. Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky. Other passages complete the picture of the sky as a lofty, physical dome. God “sits throned on the vaulted roof of earth [chuwg], whose inhabitants are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the skies [shamayim] like a curtain, he spreads them out like a tent to live in...[Isaiah 40:22].” Chuwg literally means “circle” or “encompassed.” By extension, it can mean roundness, as in a rounded dome or vault. Job 22:14 says God “walks to and fro on the vault of heaven [chuwg].” In both verses, the use of chuwg implies a physical object, on which one can sit and walk. Likewise, the context in both cases requires elevation. In Isaiah, the elevation causes the people below to look small as grasshoppers. In Job, God's eyes must penetrate the clouds to view the doings of humans below. Elevation is also implied by Job 22:12: “Surely God is at the zenith of the heavens [shamayim] and looks down on all the stars, high as they are.”

This picture of the cosmos is reinforced by Ezekiel's vision. The Hebrew word raqiya appears five times in Ezekiel, four times in Ezekiel 1:22-26 and once in Ezekiel 10:1. In each case the context requires a literal vault or dome. The vault appears above the “living creatures” and glitters “like a sheet of ice.” Above the vault is a throne of sapphire (or lapis lazuli). Seated on the throne is “a form in human likeness,” which is radiant and “like the appearance of the glory of the Lord.” In short, Ezekiel saw a vision of God sitting throned on the vault of heaven, as described in Isaiah 40:22.

The Shape of the Earth

Disregarding the dome, the essential flatness of the earth's surface is required by verses like Daniel 4:10-11. In Daniel, the king “saw a tree of great height at the centre of the earth...reaching with its top to the sky and visible to the earth's farthest bounds.” If the earth were flat, a sufficiently tall tree would be visible to “the earth's farthest bounds,” but this is impossible on a spherical earth. Likewise, in describing the temptation of Jesus by Satan, Matthew 4:8 says, “Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world [cosmos] in their glory.” Obviously, this would be possible only if the earth were flat. The same is true of Revelation 1:7: “Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him...”

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