The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
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22-10-2012, 11:22 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2012 11:36 PM by The Theist.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:12 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Shamayim (ם‎שמי‎), the Hebrew word for "heaven", denotes a component of the cosmos, the other elements being the earth (erets) and the underworld (sheol). Shamayim is the dwelling place of God and other heavenly beings and, in post-Hebrew Bible literature (including the Christian New Testament), the abode of the righteous dead.

Uh. No. I know you call it circular reasoning but when you say the Christian Greek scriptures say something its only logical to ask where did you read that at?

(22-10-2012 11:12 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  The Biblical authors pictured the earth as a flat disk floating in water, with the heavens above and the underworld below. The raqiya (firmament), a solid inverted bowl above the earth, coloured blue by the cosmic ocean, kept the waters above the earth from flooding the world. From about 300 BCE the three-tiered cosmos was largely replaced by a newer Greek model which saw the earth as a sphere at the centre of a set of seven concentric heavens, one for each visible planet plus the sun and moon, with the realm of God in an eighth and highest heaven, but although several Jewish works from this period have multiple heavens, as do some New Testament works, none has exactly the formal Greek system.

Most of that is incorrect.

(22-10-2012 11:12 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Spherical earth.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes


Eratosthenes was born c. 276 B.C.E. Your math is way off.
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22-10-2012, 11:23 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 10:27 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(20-10-2012 09:56 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And WE'RE the ignorant ones?

lolwut?

Son, even the Pope, your leader, recognizes that evolution is a thing now.

Yeah. Ignorant. The Pope is most definitely not my leader. He is the leader of a bunch of child raping idiots who believes in lots of pagan bullshit myths and not the Bible.

Sure he is.

Quote:Okay. How many thousands of years before science did the Bible say the earth was round and hanging upon nothing, describe the hydrological cycle . . . The Bible said that the division between day and night was caused by the luminaries when science thought that it was caused by vapors, from the sky for day and from the earth for night.

You probably think that the Bible says the world is flat, and the church was in agreement the Bible with their dispute with Galileo, and you are wrong. Your thinking on the Bible is in the dark ages. Literally.

Son, the bible says a world wide flood wiped out everything on earth except for a drunken bafoon and his wife who built a large boat and held 2 of every animal on said boat for 40 days and nights.

How can anyone take such dribble seriously?



Trolls gonna troll.

PS. You know you're going to hell right?

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22-10-2012, 11:23 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:00 PM)The Theist Wrote:  First of all my observations on atheism are based upon 27 years as an atheist, 46 years of association with family and friends, 99% of who are atheists, and 16 years of debate and discussion with atheists online.
I don't care about your unfalsifiable anecdotal experience with atheists. The point is that you don't understand that you don't get to define what other people mean when they use polysemous words. When I use the work "bank", I'm the one who gets to define whether I mean the financial institution or the synonym for bench, not you.

(22-10-2012 11:00 PM)The Theist Wrote:  If the subject you are talking about isn't atheism, but science, I have truthfully told you that I have never had much interest in the subject, even as an atheist, but that isn't exclusive to theism. I have told you I don't think evolution is proven scientific fact, but rather a failed metaphysical experiment.

I have also said that I don't think the Bible threatens science or science threatens the Bible, and I have told you personally that I'm willing to listen to your criticism of 100 reasons why evolution is stupid.

So quite your fucking whining.
Actually, you have not responded to my criticism of your claim that science doesn't threaten the Bible. You believe in a literal Adam, who could not have existed if evolution occured. That being said, I have created a thread about Kent Hovind's video in the Creationism section. If you want to keep your promise, now is your time to educate yourself.

(22-10-2012 11:00 PM)The Theist Wrote:  That, to me, is a great deal more rational than atheism as it is commonly defined.
This is the issue here. Your definition of atheism is not the one this community is working with.

(22-10-2012 11:00 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Of course, I have also said on this forum that science can't test the supernatural. On a more personal level, how would you define supernatural? Do you believe in the possible existence of extraterrestrials?
I acknowledge that the mathematical probability of extraterrestrial life (which is not supernatural by the way) is high.

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22-10-2012, 11:25 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
The Bible doesn't present the "firmament" as a solid dome structure with sluice holes to allow rain to fall. The idea began appearing in Bible illustrations and encyclopedias during the dark ages. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia states: "This assumption is in reality based more upon the ideas prevalent in Europe during the Dark Ages than upon any actual statements in the O T." - Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. I, p. 314.

The Hebrew word translated firmament is raqia, which means "spreading out." The Greek stereoma and Latin firmamentum meaning "firm and solid structure," were used in translating raqia in the Septuagint and Vulgate because its root word raqa usually denotes the sense of being beaten out, either literal or figurative. For example at Exodus 39:3. When Elihu asks if God can beat out (Hebrew tarqia) the skies, the Hebrew word for skies, shachaq, doesn't imply something solid because the word for sky, shachaq, means "dust or film or clouds" Elihu was comparing the skies to a molten mirror in a figurative sense. (Daniel 12:3 / Isaiah 40:15 / Psalm 18:11)

When Elihu describes the water cycle at Job 36:27-28 he describes it in a scientifically accurate description with no mention of sluice holes in a metal dome. When Jehovah tells the Israelites that disobedience would lead to their skies becoming copper (brass, KJV) and the earth iron it is obviously a metaphorical reference to intense heat and drought. (Deuteronomy 28:23-24)

It should also be noted that even the KJV has a marginal reading of "expansion" where firmament appears. The following are some translations where expanse is used instead of firmament. Genesis 1:6 (Amp, DBY, ESV, NASB, YLT)
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22-10-2012, 11:26 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
*yawn*

where's the bit where you leave the forum?

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22-10-2012, 11:33 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2012 11:41 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:22 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Uh. No. I know you call it circular reasoning but when you say the Christian Greek say something its only logical to ask where did you read that at?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_in_Judaism
(22-10-2012 11:22 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Most of that is incorrect.
Proof?
(22-10-2012 11:22 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Eratosthenes was born c. 276 B.C.E. Your math is way off.
The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts date to about the 2nd century BCE

And... If I am incorrect about Eratosthenes then


Pythagoras

Early Greek philosophers alluded to a spherical Earth, though with some ambiguity. Pythagoras (6th century BC) was among those said to have originated the idea, but this may reflect the ancient Greek practice of ascribing every discovery to one or another of their ancient wise men. Some idea of the sphericity of the Earth seems to have been known to both Parmenides and Empedocles in the 5th century BC, and although the idea cannot reliably be ascribed to Pythagoras, it may, nevertheless have been formulated in the Pythagorean school in the 5th century BC. After the 5th century BC, no Greek writer of repute thought the world was anything but round.

Herodotus

In The Histories, written 431–425 BC, Herodotus doubts a report of the sun observed shining from the north. This arises when discussing the circumnavigation of Africa undertaken by Phoenicians under Necho II c. 610–595 BC. (The Histories, 4.42) when they reported that they had the sun on their right when circumnavigating in a clockwise direction. For modern historians this confirms the truth of their report.

Plato

Plato (427–347 BC) travelled to southern Italy to study Pythagorean mathematics. When he returned to Athens and established his school, Plato also taught his students that Earth was a sphere though he offered no justifications. If man could soar high above the clouds, Earth would resemble "one of those balls which have leather coverings in twelve pieces, and is decked with various colours, of which the colours used by painters on earth are in a manner samples." In Timaeus, his one work that was available throughout the Middle Ages in Latin, we read that the Creator "made the world in the form of a globe, round as from a lathe, having its extremes in every direction equidistant from the centre, the most perfect and the most like itself of all figures", though the word "world" normally refers to the universe.

Aristotle

Round Earth umbra during the August 2008 lunar eclipse

Aristotle (384–322 BC) was Plato's prize student and "the mind of the school." Aristotle observed "there are stars seen in Egypt and Cyprus which are not seen in the northerly regions." Since this could only happen on a curved surface, he too believed Earth was a sphere "of no great size, for otherwise the effect of so slight a change of place would not be quickly apparent." (De caelo, 298a2–10)

Aristotle provided physical and observational arguments supporting the idea of a spherical Earth:

Every portion of the Earth tends toward the center until by compression and convergence they form a sphere. (De caelo, 297a9–21)
Travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon; and
The shadow of Earth on the Moon during a lunar eclipse is round. (De caelo, 297b31–298a10).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth

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22-10-2012, 11:47 PM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2012 12:03 AM by The Theist.)
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:23 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Son, the bible says a world wide flood wiped out everything on earth except for a drunken bafoon and his wife who built a large boat and held 2 of every animal on said boat for 40 days and nights.

How can anyone take such dribble seriously?

Try researching what the Bible actually said might be a belated start. Here are some Bible facts to get you started . . .

1. There was a canopy of water vapors lifted from the water planet and placed in the heavens shortly before land appeared.

2. The lifespan as well as this water canopy changed dramatically after the flood.

3. There were only a few hundred animals necessary on the ark, most of them smaller than a breadbox.

ETA 4. It wasn't 40 days, it was about a year.

(22-10-2012 11:23 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Trolls gonna troll.

A smug smart ass who doesn't know what he is talking about is going to call a troll whatever he will. I don't give a fuck about that.

(22-10-2012 11:23 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  PS. You know you're going to hell right?

The Reality Of Hell

I think the most important aspect of educating the agnostic regarding the possible existence of Jehovah God of the Bible is to examine the pagan influence in modern day Christian theology, in order to approach the possibility without the distortion of tradition, and as we will see, apostasy. The first and probably the easier of these teachings to expose, is the pagan teaching of hell adopted by the church.


The English Word Hell

The old English word hell comes from helan, and means to cover or conceal. Similar words coming from the same root have a similar meaning. Hill for example is a mound of dirt or stone that covers the level surface of earth. Hull is the covering of a nut or the covered part of a ship. Heal is the covering of a wound. Hall is a building space which is used to cover people or goods. Hole is an uncovering. Shell.

In the early days to hell potatoes meant to cover them, as to store them in a cellar or underground. To hel a house meant to cover a portion of it with tile. The term heling a house is still used in the New England portions of the United States.

At first the use of hell had no pagan meaning to it. It was simply used as the common grave of man. To go to hell in the old English language meant simply that one was dead and buried. It was in Germany and England that the word began to evolve into the pagan unscriptural meaning of eternal punishment.


Poor Modern Translation

The original meaning of the word hell is not so much a poor translation of the Hebrew sheohl (English Transliteration sheol) and the Greek Haides (English transliteration hades), as much as it is a case of the word having evolved into a pagan meaning; the modern day translation of hell is misleading.

The Catholic Douay Version translates sheohl as hell 64 times and once as death. The King James Version translates sheohl 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave and 3 times as pit. This is common in older translations as well, such as is used by the English Revised Version (1885) where sheohl is transliterated in many cases but most of the occurrences were translated as grave, or pit. Hell being used 14 times. The American Standard Version (1901) transliterated sheohl in all 65 occurrences and haides in all ten of its occurrences, though the Greek word Geenna (English Gehenna) is translated hell.


The Hebrew Sheol

The Hebrew word sheol is the unseen resting place of the dead. It is not to be mistaken for the Hebrew words for individual burial place (qever - Judges 16:31), grave (qevurah - Genesis 35:20), or individual tomb (gadhish - Job 21:32) but rather the common grave of all mankind whatever the form of burial might be.

The Greek philosophical teaching of the immortality of the human soul and hell began to infiltrate Jewish teachings probably around the time of Alexander The Great. The Bible itself, however, is in stark contrast to the teachings of pagan origin regarding the soul, which is not immortal (Ezekiel 18:4) and therefore can't suffer forever in hell. The Bible also teaches that there is no consciousness in hell. (Ecclesiastes 9:4-10).

Sheol corresponds with the Greek Haides, both being the unseen resting place of the dead. It is not a place of fire, but of darkness (Job 10:21) a place of silence (Psalm 115:17) rather than a place filled with tortured screams.


The Greek Hades

The Greek word Hades corresponds to the Hebrew Sheol as is indicated by the apostle Peter's reference to Psalms 16:10 at Acts 2:27-31 where Jesus had fulfilled David's prophecy that Jesus would not be left in hell. Peter quoted Psalms and used the Greek hades in place of sheol. Likewise Jesus himself said that like Jonah, he would spend three days in hell. (Jonah 1:17; Jonah 2:2 / Matthew 12:40)

The Greek word Hades occurs 10 times in the Christian Greek scriptures. (Matthew 11:23; 16:18 / Luke 10:15; 16:23 / Acts 2:27, 31; / Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14.

It means the unseen place. In ten of the occurrences of hades it is in reference to death. It is not to be confused with the Greek word for grave (taphos), tomb (mnema) or memorial tomb (mnemeion), but is rather the common resting place of the dead. The place of death.

Jesus also uses hades at Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15 in a figurative way to indicate the debasement of Capernaum compared to heaven.

Also see The Rich Man And Lazarus below.


The Greek Gehenna

Unlike the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades, there is really no excuse for mistaking the Greek Geenna (Hebrew Geh Hinnom - English Transliteration Gehenna) with the notion of any hell, either the old English word meaning covered or the pagan hell of today's Christianity.

The Christian Greek Gehenna is a literal place - a valley that lies South and South-West of ancient Jerusalem. It is the modern day Wadi er-Rababi (Ge Ben Hinnom), a deep, narrow valley. Today it is a peaceful and pleasant valley, unlike the surrounding dry and rocky terrain, and most certainly unlike the pagan / apostate Christian hell.

In the days of unfaithful Kings Manasseh and Ahaz idolatrous worship of the pagan god Baal was conducted in the place which was then known as Geh Hinnom, (the valley of Hinnom) including human sacrifices to fire. It is ironic that the pagan custom of burning in fire, as in hell, would have so clearly infiltrated the Christian teachings, considering that this practice was a detestable thing to Jehovah God, and his prophets spoke of a time when this place would be turned into a defiled and desolate place. (2 Chronicles 28:1-3; 33:1-6 / Jeremiah 7:31-32; 32:35).

The prophecy was fulfilled in the days of faithful King Josiah, who had the place, especially the area known as Topeth polluted into a refuse heap. (2 Kings 23:10)

So it was that in the days of Jesus and the early Christian congregations, that the valley was known as a literal place where the carcasses of criminals and animals were thrown, having no hope for resurrection. The refuse there was kept burning with sulphur, which is abundant in the area. When Jesus used Gehenna as a figurative - a symbolic reference to the spiritually dead - the people in the area knew what he was talking about.

[Image: gehenna.jpg]

The Greek Tartarus

The Greek word Tartarus is found only once in scripture, at 2 Peter 2:4. It is often mistranslated as hell. Tartarus in the Christian Greek scriptures refers to a condition of debasement, unlike the pre-Christian pagan Tartarus (as in Homer's Iliad) which is a mythological prison. The word basically means the lowest place.

Peter refers to the angels who in the time of Noah forsook their original positions and became men in order to have relations with the women of earth. The result was their offspring being giants, the Nephilim, who caused so much destruction God had to bring forth the flood. (Genesis 6:1-4 / Ephesians 6:10-12 / Jude 1:6).

It is interesting that this verse is often mistranslated because when Jesus was resurrected from Sheol / Hades (Hell in some translations) on earth, he first went to tartarus to minister to the disobedient angels whom had been lowered in position - who happened to be in heaven in a position of debasement. This means that if you don't understand the mistranslation you would see Jesus go to hell on earth and then hell in heaven.


The Pagan Hell

The Pagan teaching of hell was adopted by the apostate Christian church. Today's thinking of hell comes more from Dante's Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, but the teaching of hellfire is much older than the English word hell or Dante and Milton. It comes from Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs of a nether world. A place where gods and demons of great strength and fierceness presided over the damned.

Ancient Egyptian beliefs considered the Other World to be a place of pits of fire for the damned though they didn't think this lasted forever. Islamic teaching considers hell as a place of everlasting punishment. Hindus and Buddhists think of hell as a place of spiritual cleansing and final restoration.


Separation From God

Modern day Christians often try to soften the teaching of hell as a separation from God, but hell (as is often translated from the Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades) can't be a separation from God, since God is in effect there - it is in front of him. He watches sheol for the time when the dead shall be resurrected. (Proverbs 15:11 / Psalms 139:7-8 / Amos 9:1-2).


Lazarus And The Rich Man - Luke 16:19-31

Jesus often taught people in a way which was easy for them to grasp. One way of doing this is through parables, or illustration. They are stories, which are not meant to be taken as literal accounts. Such is the case with the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Notice that the Rich man is buried in hades. If this account is to be taken literally then the Bible would contradict itself with all of the information being given in this article, but lets not leave it up to what may be thought to be my own personal interpretation.

Let it also be known that if this account is to be taken literally then that would make Jesus a liar. How so? How could Lazarus be at the bosom of Abraham in heaven when Jesus had already said that no man had ascended to heaven other than himself? (John 3:13).


The Lake Of Fire

The lake of fire is sometimes referred to as hell. The lake of fire is obviously a symbolic reference to everlasting destruction. Since hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire they can't be one and the same. Since death is thrown into the lake of fire and death isn't something that can be thrown literally, the lake is obviously symbolic. The fact that hell and death are symbolically destroyed by fire is harmonious with the end of sin which brought death. Those not thrown into the lake of fire are the meek who will inherit the earth and live forever upon it.


Secular And Religious References To Hell

"Sheol was located somewhere 'under' the earth . . . . The state of the dead was one of neither pain nor pleasure. Neither reward for the righteous nor punishment for the wicked was associated with Sheol. The good and bad alike, tyrants and saints, kings and orphans, Israelites and gentiles - all slept together without awareness of one another." - Encyclpaedia Britannica (1971, Vol. 11, p. 276)

"Hades . . . it corresponds to 'Sheol' in the O.T. and N.T., it has been unhappily rendered 'hell' " - Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 2 p. 187)

"First it (Hell) stands for the Hebrew Sheohl of the Old Testament and the Greek Hades of the Septuagint and New Testament . Since Sheohl in Old Testament times referred simply to the abode of the dead and suggested no moral distinctions, the word 'hell,' as understood today, is not a happy translation." - Collier's Encyclopedia (1986, Vol. 12, p. 28)

"Much Confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheohl and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception." - The Encyclopedia Americana (1956, Vol. XIV, p. 81)

"The word ( sheol ) occurs often in the Psalms and in the book of Job to refer to the place to which all dead people go. It is represented as a dark place, in which there is no activity worthy of the name. There are no moral distinction there, so 'hell' ( KJV ) is not a suitable translation, since that suggests a contrast with 'heaven' as the dwelling-place of the righteous after death. In a sense, 'the grave' in a generic sense is a near equivalent, except that Sheol is more a mass grave in which all the dead dwell together . . . . The use of this particular imagery may have been considered suitable here [ in Jonah 2:2 ] in view of Jonah's imprisonment in the interior of the fish." - A Translators Handbook on the Book of Jonah, Brynmor F. Price and Eugene A. Nida, 1978, p 37
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22-10-2012, 11:48 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 10:25 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(21-10-2012 06:16 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Supreme
1. Dominant, having power over all others.
2. At the greatest, most excellent, extreme,
most superior, highest, or utmost.

Lol there it is The Theists version of god.

If you ask me which gods of the Bible do I believe in, I would say Satan, Jehovah, Jesus, Moses, Tammuz, The Judges Of Israel (some faithful some not) and the Angels (also some faithful and some not). Those are just the ones I believe actually existed.

I also believe Dagon, Molech, Baal, Astoreth, Casper and probably a half dozen or so I can't recall offhand were gods even though they don't exist.

What evidence for the existence of the beings is sufficient enough to merit belief?

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22-10-2012, 11:58 PM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:33 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  The oldest surviving Hebrew Bible manuscripts date to about the 2nd century BCE

All of the examples you gave are much later than the Bible in saying that the earth is round. By the way, it was in Isaiah 40:22, which was written in 732 B.C.E., not that you asked.

So, then logically your argument is dependent upon accurately dating the aforementioned manuscript. Of course, doing this has nothing to do with the dating of the oldest surviving Hebrew manuscripts, even that date is pushing your argument to its limits.

By the way, I do actually appreciate that you have at least done some research, given it some thought. A more acceptable example of a thinking atheist than I have seen here so far.
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23-10-2012, 12:01 AM
RE: The Irrational Nature Of Atheism
(22-10-2012 11:48 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(22-10-2012 10:25 PM)The Theist Wrote:  If you ask me which gods of the Bible do I believe in, I would say Satan, Jehovah, Jesus, Moses, Tammuz, The Judges Of Israel (some faithful some not) and the Angels (also some faithful and some not). Those are just the ones I believe actually existed.

I also believe Dagon, Molech, Baal, Astoreth, Casper and probably a half dozen or so I can't recall offhand were gods even though they don't exist.

What evidence for the existence of the beings is sufficient enough to merit belief?

That would depend upon the person, I suppose, but isn't entirely the point. The definition of a god isn't necessarily dependent upon a literal existence. For example, I know who Zeus and Dagon are, I know they are gods, I don't believe they existed, but they still are gods.
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