The JE Walker debates commentary thread
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25-03-2014, 11:54 PM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
(25-03-2014 04:07 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(25-03-2014 03:57 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  On the way out but wanted to jot a quick note -- cjlr has touched on this some but I don't recall anyone ever enunciating it entirely:

When someone says "everything that BEGINS TO EXIST has a cause", they are adding "begins to exist" for a reason. They can't say "everyrhing that exists", because the deity they are trying to prove would "exist" as well, and they lose their Special Pleading option if they include it.
But then he is left with the obligation to show that energy began to exist.
Which he hasn't done.

And he tries to get away with his philosophical "Causation premise", demanding that it requires no scientific substantiation. Then he goes about his merry way trying to confuse conflate this "Causation premise" with Newton's laws. He is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

Science has never proven how energy can be created, science has not shown that it requires a cause. On the quantum level most science is about known probabilities rather than cause and effect. The early universe is micro (quantum) level, atoms did not exist in the early universe.

I often wonder if these people believe in KCA or if they are merely interested in showing off their "debating" skills. He quickly resorts to disingenuous techniques so I don't think he believes in his own argument.

If you look at his behavior in other fora ( http://www.christianforums.com/t7809399-15/ ), you'll see the same thing: Shifting the burden of proof. Assertions by fiat. Circular arguments. Delusional, false, and fallacious claims of superior knowledge/understanding/powers of debate/logic/reasoning.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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26-03-2014, 12:08 AM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
(25-03-2014 04:00 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-03-2014 03:57 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  On the way out but wanted to jot a quick note -- cjlr has touched on this some but I don't recall anyone ever enunciating it entirely:

When someone says "everything that BEGINS TO EXIST has a cause", they are adding "begins to exist" for a reason. They can't say "everyrhing that exists", because the deity they are trying to prove would "exist" as well, and they lose their Special Pleading option if they include it. They would have to explain how it was caused to exist. So they say "Begins to exist" -- but as cjlr has pointed out, we aren't talking about a chair, which "begins to exist" as a chair when it is assembled out of various materials, we are really talking about *conjuring*. For teh universe to "begin to exist" in this context, it would have to be *conjured* out of nothing (by an entity/whatever).

So proponents of this "premise" are arguing "something comes from nothing", even as they strawman their opponents as believers in "something from nothing".

Out of time but wanted to throw this out for consideration.

Didn't I cover that? Not so explicitly, I grant - there are so many problems to cover before that one!

(23-03-2014 07:48 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Fourth - it does not follow that "something" other than the universe has "always" existed, even ignoring the problems with defining either of those terms. If one can conceive of a naively infinite temporal regress, one can conceive of a naively infinite causal regress. Do you understand this?
My impression was that you touched on it, but didn't quite hammer it home or emphasize it as much as, I guess, IMO I felt it needed to be emphasized, I see it as a "killing point", a haymaker, a finisher-offer. Of course, several other points you raised along with it rise to that level as well.

But at the same time, it has become quite clear that you are going to be stuck in an infinite, perpetual "Monty Python Black Knight" scenario, in which the sumbitch will refuse to admit defeat no matter how badly you maul him. Like the bastard son of the Black Knight and the Hydra. Chop off his legs and arms and he thinks ten grow back. "It's just a scratch!". I feel for ya.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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26-03-2014, 12:24 AM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
(25-03-2014 06:48 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  If you deny either of the premises then you have to have a reason why.

The reason is that JEW has failed, and even REFUSED to substantiate them.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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26-03-2014, 01:30 AM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
(25-03-2014 06:48 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  If you deny either of the premises then you have to have a reason why. Saying the causal principle does not apply with regards to the coming into existence of the universe itself must be substantiated for that is what you have argued.

But you shot yourself in the foot with that because you know you have no good reason for making the universe the exception to the principle. It is fallacious.

Have anything else?

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26-03-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
(22-03-2014 06:23 AM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  This is incorrect. WLC does not conclude that since the universe has a cause, it must have been God.



(23-03-2014 06:08 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Scientific methodology has no bearing on what constitutes a good philosophical argument for the existence of God.

[Image: facepalm.gif]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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26-03-2014, 06:41 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2014 06:44 PM by rampant.a.i..)
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
The idiot is still at it insisting causality existed pre-causality, and just compared God to a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

I don't think he realizes it though.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...used_cause

http://lilt.ilstu.edu/pefranc/firstcause.html

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26-03-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
I got bored with the same old shit - including, from our special little friend, arguments which he, himself already invalidated - so I turned the latest outing into a creative writing exercise. Any objections?

... this is my signature!
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26-03-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
Honestly, if he claims he's "won" that debate, he deserves to be banned.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
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26-03-2014, 07:15 PM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
(26-03-2014 07:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I got bored with the same old shit - including, from our special little friend, arguments which he, himself already invalidated - so I turned the latest outing into a creative writing exercise. Any objections?


I am exceedingly entertained and highly approve. Brilliant!


PS: I *love* the part where he accuses you of engaging in an "irrational leap of blind faith". It lets me know that he knows that it's a Bad Thing.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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26-03-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: The JE Walker debates commentary thread
Hang on, hang on.

CJLR did you tell him that the universe came into existence fully formed with stars and planets (and light in transit), and animals including rabbits with fur and twitchy noses busy eating fully formed carrots?

Quote:What you are proposing is that things like rabbits can just come into being without any cause or reason whatsoever.

and who said anything about a reason for existence? Which sly dog snuck that one in there?
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