The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
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29-10-2012, 02:53 PM
The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
So I was looking at the candidates for the upcoming election and noticed that a man named Rocky Anderson was running for the "Justice Party." Well I had never heard of such a party so I looked it up. Apparently, they were just created last year and gathered enough ballot write-ins to make it this far. Their stance is similar to the Libertarian party.

From Wiki:

"The Justice Party USA is a political party in the United States. It was first organized in November 2011 to place Rocky Anderson, a former Mayor of Salt Lake City, on the ballot for President of the United States in 2012.

In December 2011, it became a qualified party in Mississippi, the first state to recognize the party. From a small beginning, 30 persons at the launching event with no TV crew covering it, the party has been able to put its founder, Rocky Anderson, on the ballot in 16 states and secure official write-in status in 14 additional states. It is now the sixth largest party in terms of presidential ballot access in the 2012 presidential election.

The party is working for campaign finance reforms and does not accept corporate funding. It wants to abolish corporate personhood. The party and its founder are in favor of a financial transaction tax and want to end the Bush tax cuts. They are against the enlarging of the Keystone Pipeline and want a ban on mountaintop removal mining. They are also proponents for a single payer health system. It describes itself as advocating economic justice through measures such as green jobs and a right to organize, environment justice through enforcing employee safeguards in trade agreements, and social and civic justice through universal health care."


Apart from the fact that Rocky speaks with the cadence of Mr Rogers and puts me to sleep faster than a book on tape, I agree with a lot of what he says. I kind of hope this party continues into next term and continues to gain support.

One day, will I have to chose between Liberty(ian) and Justice?




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29-10-2012, 06:43 PM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
too sensible. They'll never get anywhere.

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29-10-2012, 08:24 PM
Re: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
I enjoyed him at last Weeks debate and he fits to things I agree with more than any others.

I want to vote for him but night do Libertarian party to give my vote to push a party shift... Not sure yet.

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30-10-2012, 10:55 AM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
These 3rd party people are full of shit.

Somebody needs to tell this Rocky Anderson guy, along with all of those other assholes, to stop being so naive and step back into the reality of the system.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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30-10-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
(30-10-2012 10:55 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  Somebody needs to tell this Rocky Anderson guy, along with all of those other assholes, to stop being so naive and step back into the reality of the system.

The reality of the thoroughly broken and utterly useless system. There, I fixed it for you.

Not that I'm saying stealing a whopping couple percent of the voters as a 3rd party is going to make any difference either.

When bipartisan politics is more about screwing the other party than doing the right thing, it's time for a new system. I long for the (improbable future) day that we have no parties, and everyone just runs on their own ideas and their own merit, and we can elect the politician with the best prospect of getting really beneficial things done.

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30-10-2012, 02:25 PM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
(30-10-2012 11:12 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  When bipartisan politics is more about screwing the other party than doing the right thing, it's time for a new system. I long for the (improbable future) day that we have no parties, and everyone just runs on their own ideas and their own merit, and we can elect the politician with the best prospect of getting really beneficial things done.

He actually, in the video, mentioned that the system is broken. The problem is that barely anyone wants to mention why the system is broken. It's not because all of this nonsense and bullshit these people, and this guy in the video, are bitching about. The way campaigns are financed, the advertising, the lobbying, money, special interest, crappy debates, crappy journalism, etc., all play a role, but the real problem is the people, the voters.

Call it some kind of catch 22 if you want.

The real reason why there is bipartisan politics that are about screwing the other party over, is because you can convince voters, that a single payer, government paid, universal healthcare system, raising taxes, government paid higher education, and putting regulation and laws in place to protect the environment and against financial sector misconduct-- just to cherry pick some of this guys views, which really aren't different from the Democratic party-- will send the economy into a downward spiral, end American, modern, civilized life as we know it, and lead to a totalitarian state, ran by military force.

It can't go ignored, that for every extremist lunatic running around Congress, there is a large group of voters that voted that guy, or girl, into office, as opposed to a competent candidate.

It also can't go ignored that this country is divided about what direction to go. For every candidate who thinks he is doing what is best for the American people, there is a group voters, who all think that, that candidate is screwing the country over.

So, I guess my point is, the problem is the system, but the broken part of the system is the people, the voters, not the system itself. Also, the broken system is actually the system we are operating in right now. To actually change anything about the system, you have to use all of the tools and operations you despise, in order to get elected and impact public policy. This guy wants to bash Obama, but ask him how easy it was for Obama to go to the White House and push all of the policy and changes he wanted through Congress. Obama, after a year, lost the House, and lost a decent portion of the Senate, and spent the next couple years having to listen to people complain about how nothing was getting done. That was after barely getting legislation and reforms passed, with ideas that Republicans should have supported, with Democratic majority, for the first years.

Taking that into account, when people, like this Justice Party guy, think that somehow they can take bigger, less likely to be supported, ideas, and take an ideologically, extremely impractical, stance, it's just all bullshit, and they really need to cut the naive, system bashing, look at us we are above it, bullshit out. To quote George Carlin: "It's a big club, and you ain't in it". The rules are set, they set the rules, and you have to play within the rules. If you don't want to play within the rules, shut the fuck up or complain from the sidelines. Don't start the Angry Former Democrats United, and act like you are doing good.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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30-10-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
Of course the problem is the people.
When bowling scores are what people base their votes on, you know you have issues.

Here, the way our system works, even the two main parties if they don't do/say the things people wont the policy people want, they wont get elected because there's a couple smaller parties that have a lot of power (that's the beauty of MMP, small parties have power but not so much that it's the small parties running the show).
I think America would hugely, HUGELY benefit from adopting the MMP system. Voting for small parties will actually matter and I think that will greatly change the way people vote.
Which is why your electoral system will never change because the (masses of) people are politically ignorant and the people in power are the people in the position to lose (the democrats and republicans).

But I'm telling you, you want real change in America, you wanna fix the broken system, change the electoral system and it'll will fix 99% of the problems. A simply little tweak makes all the difference.

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30-10-2012, 06:53 PM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
(30-10-2012 04:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But I'm telling you, you want real change in America, you wanna fix the broken system, change the electoral system and it'll will fix 99% of the problems. A simply little tweak makes all the difference.

It's all about policy. I wouldn't see it making any difference at all. Ultimately, there is only one way to go, and you might as well go for prosperity, as opposed to going for the efficiency of the system. If you have idiots voting for idiots, with just a proportionality of idiots, you'd still have idiotic policy, and things not getting done properly.

I really like the two party system in the US, the way it is now. The parties are supposed to represent, what they are supposed to represent, and they are only straying away because of the people. That points to an underlying problem that has to be fixed over the long term. I'd work to fix the specific problems, like the way campaigns are financed, the advertising, the lobbying, money, special interest, gerrymandering, filibuster, voting rules, etc, through the system that we have right now. Any change to the system, that someone could recommend, even if it fixed some of the things I mentioned, would be a band-aid approach, to me. You have to work to fix the underlying problems.

If you can fix those problems, within the system we have right now, which we seem to be working through as of right now, given that we are still on a great track despite the political stagnation, fiscal cliff, which will be solved, and not being able to determine who should have say policy wise, you can come out even better.

I'd agree with this statement, and I think, maybe I'm being optimistic, we can get it done, just with two parties, in the USm without any tweak in the electoral system: I long for the (improbable future) day that we have no parties, and everyone just runs on their own ideas and their own merit, and we can elect the politician with the best prospect of getting really beneficial things done.

And I know there are people who are all for the electoral system change, and would disagree with my view, but you kind of have to keep in mind, that even if they were correct, we'd still have to work through our current system to make the changes.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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30-10-2012, 07:09 PM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
(30-10-2012 06:53 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(30-10-2012 04:24 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But I'm telling you, you want real change in America, you wanna fix the broken system, change the electoral system and it'll will fix 99% of the problems. A simply little tweak makes all the difference.

It's all about policy. I wouldn't see it making any difference at all. Ultimately, there is only one way to go, and you might as well go for prosperity, as opposed to going for the efficiency of the system. If you have idiots voting for idiots, with just a proportionality of idiots, you'd still have idiotic policy, and things not getting done properly.

I really like the two party system in the US, the way it is now. The parties are supposed to represent, what they are supposed to represent, and they are only straying away because of the people. That points to an underlying problem that has to be fixed over the long term. I'd work to fix the specific problems, like the way campaigns are financed, the advertising, the lobbying, money, special interest, gerrymandering, filibuster, voting rules, etc, through the system that we have right now. Any change to the system, that someone could recommend, even if it fixed some of the things I mentioned, would be a band-aid approach, to me. You have to work to fix the underlying problems.

If you can fix those problems, within the system we have right now, which we seem to be working through as of right now, given that we are still on a great track despite the political stagnation, fiscal cliff, which will be solved, and not being able to determine who should have say policy wise, you can come out even better.

I'd agree with this statement, and I think, maybe I'm being optimistic, we can get it done, just with two parties, in the USm without any tweak in the electoral system: I long for the (improbable future) day that we have no parties, and everyone just runs on their own ideas and their own merit, and we can elect the politician with the best prospect of getting really beneficial things done.

And I know there are people who are all for the electoral system change, and would disagree with my view, but you kind of have to keep in mind, that even if they were correct, we'd still have to work through our current system to make the changes.

You don't have a 2 party system. You have a 1 party system. The technical term is democratic dictatorship.
1 party get's in, that's it.

Under MMP a lot more people would vote for smaller parties because it would have an effect, their vote would matter. I think that is why people don't vote for them now because it doesn't mean shit, you're wasting your vote.
Under MMP smaller parties would still be small (though more like 5% rather then 0.5%) and so the majority of policy would still come from the two main parties, BUT it would force change because the voter would have more power.
Example.
You like Republicans but you want the country to be extreme right wing. Republicans are pretty far right but they're not extreme extreme.
So along comes the Tea Party.
By switching your vote to the Tea Party you're giving more power to the extreme right (your opinion). Then if the Tea Party gains enough support, say 5% and Republicans get say 46% (50% required under MMP) the Republicans are then forced to make a coalition with the Tea Party. This means the Tea Party can request certain policy in order to secure that coalition.
It's balanced because if the Tea Party doesn't offer acceptable terms, then it gets nothing. Also under an ideal MMP there is more then one minor party on either side and so say Tea Party gets 5% but some other far extreme right party gets 5%, the Republicans only need 1 to get into government so it then becomes like a bidding war right.

Basically voters get more voting power because they can allocate more power to smaller parties which can in tern keep larger parties in line.

I hope I'm getting my point across. It can be a little confusing if you don't understand MMP and know how it works.

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31-10-2012, 09:05 AM
RE: The Justice Party and Rocky Anderson
(30-10-2012 07:09 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  You don't have a 2 party system. You have a 1 party system. The technical term is democratic dictatorship.
1 party get's in, that's it.

What are you referring to here? Who doesn't have a two party system? And one party gets into what?

(30-10-2012 07:09 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Under MMP a lot more people would vote for smaller parties because it would have an effect, their vote would matter. I think that is why people don't vote for them now because it doesn't mean shit, you're wasting your vote.
Under MMP smaller parties would still be small (though more like 5% rather then 0.5%) and so the majority of policy would still come from the two main parties, BUT it would force change because the voter would have more power.
Example.
You like Republicans but you want the country to be extreme right wing. Republicans are pretty far right but they're not extreme extreme.
So along comes the Tea Party.
By switching your vote to the Tea Party you're giving more power to the extreme right (your opinion). Then if the Tea Party gains enough support, say 5% and Republicans get say 46% (50% required under MMP) the Republicans are then forced to make a coalition with the Tea Party. This means the Tea Party can request certain policy in order to secure that coalition.
It's balanced because if the Tea Party doesn't offer acceptable terms, then it gets nothing. Also under an ideal MMP there is more then one minor party on either side and so say Tea Party gets 5% but some other far extreme right party gets 5%, the Republicans only need 1 to get into government so it then becomes like a bidding war right.

Basically voters get more voting power because they can allocate more power to smaller parties which can in tern keep larger parties in line.

I hope I'm getting my point across. It can be a little confusing if you don't understand MMP and know how it works.

I guess I should have been a lot more blunt.

I just don't care.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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