The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-10-2015, 06:27 AM
The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum.
So, I often see the Cosmological Argument (Kalam or other versions) to be regarded as the strongest argument for a deity - that is, the need for a cause. I just don't get why this is in any way a reasonable argument.
The first line is "everything that begins to exist has a cause".
This is true for everything in the universe, right? But this is a property of space-time, isn't it?
How could anything cause anything without space and time? And if the universe, and therefor space and time, had a beginning, then we could never draw the conclusion that the universe needs to have a cause, because it is in itself the start of causality, right?
Actually, if the universe is the "beginning" of space and time it CAN'T have a cause, can it? Not by our definition of what causality is.

I often see the cosmological argument debated but I can't remember I've heard this very simple argument against it - am I missing something??
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes johanneswiberg's post
09-10-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
(09-10-2015 06:27 AM)johanneswiberg Wrote:  Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum.
So, I often see the Cosmological Argument (Kalam or other versions) to be regarded as the strongest argument for a deity
...

Hi there. Welcome to TTA.

Yeah. If that's the best they've got ... sad isn't it?

Big Grin

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like DLJ's post
09-10-2015, 06:53 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
(09-10-2015 06:27 AM)johanneswiberg Wrote:  Hi everybody, I'm new to this forum.
So, I often see the Cosmological Argument (Kalam or other versions) to be regarded as the strongest argument for a deity - that is, the need for a cause. I just don't get why this is in any way a reasonable argument.
The first line is "everything that begins to exist has a cause".
This is true for everything in the universe, right? But this is a property of space-time, isn't it?
How could anything cause anything without space and time? And if the universe, and therefor space and time, had a beginning, then we could never draw the conclusion that the universe needs to have a cause, because it is in itself the start of causality, right?
Actually, if the universe is the "beginning" of space and time it CAN'T have a cause, can it? Not by our definition of what causality is.

I often see the cosmological argument debated but I can't remember I've heard this very simple argument against it - am I missing something??
The simplest argument against it is that it simply states that everything has a cause, it doesn't even establish what that cause is, so it doesn't even make an argument for the existence of god.

Even the term "begins to exist" is an unwarranted assumption.

So a shoulder shrug and eye-roll is an appropriate response to it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
(09-10-2015 06:27 AM)johanneswiberg Wrote:  I often see the cosmological argument debated but I can't remember I've heard this very simple argument against it - am I missing something??

Yeah, Bucky. Angel

living word
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
Just watch William Laine Craig get squashed here.




NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Banjo's post
09-10-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
These are the best arguments against it (from a logical perspective) that I have seen:

The Kalam Cosmological Argument and Refutation

Iron Chariots is a pretty good "quick" resource for MANY of the arguments for god's existence and rebuttals against them.

Smile

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Tonechaser77's post
09-10-2015, 07:38 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?




everything wrong with it in one video
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Ace's post
09-10-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
It's a last ditch attempt at confusing people before they leave the church. Sadly there are those that fall for it, but IMO the far greater function it serves is to assure the True Believers ™ that someone is out there thinking deep thoughts about God, and has come up with proper philosophical justification for belief, therefore they can live their lives with assurance that it's not bullcrap, and if they ever think it is, it must be because they are not too clever, and not because the ones pushing the crap are stupid and/or pulling the wool over their eyes.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-10-2015, 09:06 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
(09-10-2015 06:27 AM)johanneswiberg Wrote:  I often see the cosmological argument debated but I can't remember I've heard this very simple argument against it - am I missing something??

It's been fielded before, but there's dozens of counterarguments against the cosmological argument and this one doesn't get as much play as it should.

Also, you're missing a predetermined bias in favor of concluding God. That's what you need for it to make sense. It also helps if you're SO in favor of concluding God that you're willing to conclusion-jump right past deism into theism.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Reltzik's post
09-10-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: The (Kalam) Cosmological Argument - I don't get it...?
(09-10-2015 09:06 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  
(09-10-2015 06:27 AM)johanneswiberg Wrote:  I often see the cosmological argument debated but I can't remember I've heard this very simple argument against it - am I missing something??

It's been fielded before, but there's dozens of counterarguments against the cosmological argument and this one doesn't get as much play as it should.

Also, you're missing a predetermined bias in favor of concluding God. That's what you need for it to make sense. It also helps if you're SO in favor of concluding God that you're willing to conclusion-jump right past deism into theism.

Plus it makes no case for a specific god. Craig may as well be talking about Kronos.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: