The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
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25-05-2017, 09:55 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(25-05-2017 09:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  I've got few more minutes.

Alla Wrote:Please, give me a list of doctrines that were changed?

BeccaBoo Wrote:Among the most obvious is that blacks were the seed of Cain and unworthy.
It is not a doctrine. But if we assume it is a doctrine it was never Church's doctrine.

BeccaBoo Wrote:Then there's the teaching that Lamanites are the principle ancestors of Native Americans.
It is not a doctrine. It was never a doctrine

BeccaBoo Wrote:Of course, that polygamy was required for exaltation is another.
It is still LDS doctrine.

BeccaBoo Wrote:More from Brigham Young: that Adam is God the Father.
It is not Church doctrine and never was.

BeccaBoo Wrote:Another is that birth control is an abomination.
I never heard about this doctrine. Who taught it?

BeccaBoo Wrote:And another is that the Book of Abraham is a translation of Egyptian hieroglyphics from papyri bought in Kirtland, Ohio.
BeccaBoo, how did this "doctrine" change?


BeccaBoo Wrote:There are changes to the temple endowment, the explicit blood oaths have been removed but the symbols of it are still there.
Ay, Dios Mio. BeccaBoo,
you were LDS for 40 years but you don't know BASIC things. I am LDS since 2003(less than 40 years) and I know that RITUAL is NOT a doctrine. Rituals can change. TRUTH never changes. Rituals change all the time. Rituals are made by men for better understanding, learning. Methods of learning can change.


BeccaBoo Wrote:And there have veen many changes to the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants/Book of commandments.
Yes, but those changes were not doctrinal. What BOM doctrines were changed? Please, give me a list. May be you know something I still don't know.


BeccaBoo Wrote:The teachings on the First Vision have changed...Brigham Young taught a contradictory account.
What changed (specifically)?

Blacks as the seed of Cain, from the Pearl of Great Price:

"Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them."

then

"[The] king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth. From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land… Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry."

and confirmation in the Book of Mormon

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."

Then modern LDS prophets taught it:

President Brigham Young,

"If there never was a prophet, or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that they cannot bear rule in the priesthood, for the curse on them was to remain upon them, until the residue of the posterity of Michael and his wife receive the blessings, the seed of Cain would have received had they not been cursed; and hold the keys of the priesthood, until the [Millennium] shall come, and the curse be wiped off from the earth, and from Michael’s seed."

President John Taylor,

"After the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God."

Nathan Eldon Tanner, Apostle:

"The Church has no intention of changing its doctrine on the Negro. Throughout the history of the original Christian church, the Negro never held the priesthood. There’s really nothing we can do to change this. It’s a law of God."

The First Presidency in 1949

"The attitude of the Church with reference to Negroes remains as it has always stood. It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time…

The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality…"



In revelation Joseph Smith referred to the American Indian as Lamanites. Wilford Woodreff taught it, Spencer W Kimball taught it in Conference and the Ensign, in 1974 the church published a pamphlet saying, "You native Americans who are called Indians…your ancestors were once a mighty nation upon the American continent… The Book of Mormon is a history of your people. The Book of Mormon tells how your forefathers came from Jerusalem about 600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ… You are descendants of the Lamanites." https://archive.org/stream/LamanitesAndT...0/mode/2up




Brigham Young taught that monogamy was not enough for exaltation
. Are you really saying that we are still taught this in the Church, that men MUST take on mutliple wives to be exalted?


As President of the Church, Brigham Young also taught the Adam/God Theory for twenty-five years. He preached to members they must accept it or risk damnation. He also changed the temple ceremony to make references to it, in the Manti Temple. Go ahead and google the quotes...as such an educated Mormon you should already know all this stuff Wink



Many taught against birth control, although now the current handbook sings a different tune, so it's changed. Here's a list of quotes: http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/...20Size.htm



In reference to the Book of Abraham being a direct translation of Egyptian papyri, the church is not walking back this claim. The Church now says the papyri could have just served as inspiration, not as a literally translated document, here's the church website:

"According to this view, Joseph’s translation was not a literal rendering of the papyri as a conventional translation would be. Rather, the physical artifacts provided an occasion for meditation, reflection, and revelation. They catalyzed a process whereby God gave to Joseph Smith a revelation about the life of Abraham, even if that revelation did not directly correlate to the characters on the papyri." https://www.lds.org/topics/translation-a...m?lang=eng

I think that should be enough for now...
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25-05-2017, 10:07 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
As an aside: this is the type of stuff that Mormons who learn and read are forced to compartmentalize in order to relieve the cognitive dissonance, if they want to keep believing, that is. In my opinion it often takes a deep investment in one of these issues and then an emotional experience wherein the facts become too heavy to ignore.

But a lot of people can go a very long time without reaching such a crisis. In my experience, it was faith in the word of God that led me to understand the grievousness of Joseph Smith's actions.

I have a good friend of Polynesian descent who was taught her whole life by the LDS Church that she was a part of the "Lamanite Generation," that God had preserved the Book of Mormon as a legacy for her people to rejoin the fold of God after the Restoration of the gospel by Joseph Smith. To her, this was a big deal. The LDS Church also taught that Native Americans would become whiter as they learned the gospel. It organised relocation programs where native children were adopted by white Mormon families, Elder Spencer W. Kimball taught in General Conference,

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.” http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1091&era=yes
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25-05-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(25-05-2017 10:07 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  As an aside: this is the type of stuff that Mormons who learn and read are forced to compartmentalize in order to relieve the cognitive dissonance, if they want to keep believing, that is. In my opinion it often takes a deep investment in one of these issues and then an emotional experience wherein the facts become too heavy to ignore.

But a lot of people can go a very long time without reaching such a crisis. In my experience, it was faith in the word of God that led me to understand the grievousness of Joseph Smith's actions.

I have a good friend of Polynesian descent who was taught her whole life by the LDS Church that she was a part of the "Lamanite Generation," that God had preserved the Book of Mormon as a legacy for her people to rejoin the fold of God after the Restoration of the gospel by Joseph Smith. To her, this was a big deal. The LDS Church also taught that Native Americans would become whiter as they learned the gospel. It organised relocation programs where native children were adopted by white Mormon families, Elder Spencer W. Kimball taught in General Conference,

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.” http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1091&era=yes

Holy shit that is fucked up. Teaching people of color that they will become white and "delightsome" (what is that, more holy, or somehow better?) is the epitome of white idealization. That is some insidious and harmful teaching.
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25-05-2017, 10:52 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(25-05-2017 10:12 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 10:07 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  As an aside: this is the type of stuff that Mormons who learn and read are forced to compartmentalize in order to relieve the cognitive dissonance, if they want to keep believing, that is. In my opinion it often takes a deep investment in one of these issues and then an emotional experience wherein the facts become too heavy to ignore.

But a lot of people can go a very long time without reaching such a crisis. In my experience, it was faith in the word of God that led me to understand the grievousness of Joseph Smith's actions.

I have a good friend of Polynesian descent who was taught her whole life by the LDS Church that she was a part of the "Lamanite Generation," that God had preserved the Book of Mormon as a legacy for her people to rejoin the fold of God after the Restoration of the gospel by Joseph Smith. To her, this was a big deal. The LDS Church also taught that Native Americans would become whiter as they learned the gospel. It organised relocation programs where native children were adopted by white Mormon families, Elder Spencer W. Kimball taught in General Conference,

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.” http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1091&era=yes

Holy shit that is fucked up. Teaching people of color that they will become white and "delightsome" (what is that, more holy, or somehow better?) is the epitome of white idealization. That is some insidious and harmful teaching.

Yup, it is. In the believer's mind, there are infinite ways to avoid confronting the dissonance with conscience and humaneness, and I used many of them.
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25-05-2017, 11:02 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(25-05-2017 10:52 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 10:12 AM)Emma Wrote:  Holy shit that is fucked up. Teaching people of color that they will become white and "delightsome" (what is that, more holy, or somehow better?) is the epitome of white idealization. That is some insidious and harmful teaching.

Yup, it is. In the believer's mind, there are infinite ways to avoid confronting the dissonance with conscience and humaneness, and I used many of them.

You're not wrong- I used to have to overcome my own dissonance when I was religious, too.
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25-05-2017, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2017 02:26 PM by Shai Hulud.)
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(25-05-2017 08:22 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-05-2017 07:40 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Alla...no. From your own church's website:

So, according to B.Young one group of people couldn't have certain blessing - black African descent. How about black people of Caribbean decent?
Could they have priesthood?

Why only black people of African descent? Did Brigham Young explained? Did he give a reason why black people of African descent couldn't have priesthood? how about black people of Caribbean descent?
You may assume anything but do you know why that particular group was chosen?
definitely it has nothing to do with their skin color if black people of Caribbean descent could have priesthood.

Why? Because I quoted the LDS Q&A page and that's how they worded it in an effort to whitewash (pun intended) the church's failings. BeccaBoo already touched on this with her quotes from your Scriptures, but here, let me quote your church directly about all black skinned peoples.

From the Historians' Office Journal History of the Church volume 26, the prophet Brigham Young said:
Quote:"the curse remained upon them because Cain cut off the lives of Abel, to prevent him and his posterity getting ascendancy over Cain and his generations, and to get the lead himself, his own offering not being accepted of God, while Abel's was. But the Lord had cursed Cain's seed with blackness and prohibited them the priesthood that Abel and his progeny might yet come forward and have their dominion, place, and blessings in their proper relationship with Cain and his race in the world to come."


From the Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, page 209
:
Quote:"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. ... Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race—that they should be the 'servant of servants'; and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree."

The Abolitionists being the people who wanted an end to slavery, and at least nominal rights for black people.

In Bruce R. McConkie's 1966 (a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles back in the day) "Mormon Doctrine", pages 526-527:
Quote: "Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others ....Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God and his murder of Abel being a black skin (Moses 5:16-41; 12:22). Noah's son Ham married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood (Abraham 1:20-27). Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them (Moses 7:8, 12, 22), although sometimes negroes search out the truth, join the Church, and become by righteous living heirs of the celestial kingdom of heaven. President Brigham Young and others have taught that in the future eternity worthy and qualified negroes will receive the priesthood and every gospel blessing available to any man. The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. Along with all races and peoples he is receiving here what he merits as a result of the long pre-mortal probation in the presence of the Lord....The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom, but this inequality is not of man's origin. It is the Lord's doing."


The third President of the LDS Church, John Taylor, said in the Journal of Discourses, volume 22, page 304:

Quote:"And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham's wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God; and that man should be a free agent to act for himself, and that all men might have the opportunity of receiving or rejecting the truth, and be governed by it or not according to their wishes and abide the result; and that those who would be able to maintain correct principles under all circumstances, might be able to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds."

Black people are literally in Satan's likeness according to this quote.

From the Old Testament Student Manual Genesis to 2 Samuel, from your church's website:
Quote:Therefore, although Ham himself had the right to the priesthood, Canaan, his son, did not. Ham had married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain (Abraham 1:21–24), and so his sons were denied the priesthood.

Why include this quote? Because the "curse of Cain" with black skin is STILL IN 2017 taught to LDS kids in their 'seminary' classes.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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25-05-2017, 05:01 PM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Becca, your patience is amazing. I applaud your ability to stay calm.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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25-05-2017, 05:13 PM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(25-05-2017 10:07 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  As an aside: this is the type of stuff that Mormons who learn and read are forced to compartmentalize in order to relieve the cognitive dissonance, if they want to keep believing, that is. In my opinion it often takes a deep investment in one of these issues and then an emotional experience wherein the facts become too heavy to ignore.

But a lot of people can go a very long time without reaching such a crisis. In my experience, it was faith in the word of God that led me to understand the grievousness of Joseph Smith's actions.

I have a good friend of Polynesian descent who was taught her whole life by the LDS Church that she was a part of the "Lamanite Generation," that God had preserved the Book of Mormon as a legacy for her people to rejoin the fold of God after the Restoration of the gospel by Joseph Smith. To her, this was a big deal. The LDS Church also taught that Native Americans would become whiter as they learned the gospel. It organised relocation programs where native children were adopted by white Mormon families, Elder Spencer W. Kimball taught in General Conference,

"The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.” http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1091&era=yes

Holy shit! >.> and they wonder why people say LDS is full of racists....... I pitty your friend I really do, and I'm glad you were able to see reason.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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25-05-2017, 07:14 PM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
BeccaBoo Wrote:Blacks as the seed of Cain, from the Pearl of Great Price:
You say this doctrine changed. How?

BeccaBoo Wrote:Brigham Young taught that monogamy was not enough for exaltation. Are you really saying that we are still taught this in the Church, that men MUST take on mutliple wives to be exalted?
He was talking about those men who were called by God to have more than one wife but rejected this call. Those who are called by God to have more than one wife and reject the call can NOT be exalted. It was not because they had one wife but it is because they rejected the call to have more than one wife.
This doctrine didn't change. We still believe that if a man rejects God's call to have more than one wife he can not be exalted.
It will be more exalted women than men that is why many men will have more than one wife in eternity.
This doctrine did NOT change. You say it did. What changed?

BeccaBoo Wrote:In revelation Joseph Smith referred to the American Indian as Lamanites.
OK, How did the doctrine change?

BeccaBoo Wrote:As President of the Church, Brigham Young also taught the Adam/God Theory for twenty-five years.
So? Did he make this "doctrine" a Church doctrine?
Was it included in Standard Works?
If it never was a Church doctrine and if it never was included in Standard Works why should I care if it changed or not?

BeccaBoo Wrote:Many taught against birth control, although now the current handbook sings a different tune, so it's changed. Here's a list of quotes: http://emp.byui.edu/SATTERFIELDB/Quotes/...20Size.htm
Oh, this! What changed? What is taught differently?

BeccaBoo Wrote:In reference to the Book of Abraham being a direct translation of Egyptian papyri, the church is not walking back this claim. The Church now says the papyri could have just served as inspiration, not as a literally translated document, here's the church website:
OK. Prophets express their opinions. Opinions are not doctrines. So, what changed?


BeccaBoo, I have a question for you. You have to know the answer. Who are the Lamanites according to the BOM?

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25-05-2017, 07:53 PM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Shai Hulud Wrote:Why? Because I quoted the LDS Q&A page and that's how they worded it in an effort to whitewash (pun intended) the church's failings. BeccaBoo already touched on this with her quotes from your Scriptures, but here, let me quote your church directly about all black skinned peoples.
Not all black people are descendants of Cain according to LDS doctrine. Many quotes were taken out of context. I see how those quotes can be easily misunderstood.
But all descendants of Cain are dark skinned people according to LDS doctrine.

Shai Hulud Wrote:Why include this quote? Because the "curse of Cain" with black skin is STILL IN 2017 taught to LDS kids in their 'seminary' classes.
It is not taught that curse of Cain is black skin. Black skin is a mark of Cain. But this is the curse: separation from God. All those who were descendants of Cain were separated from God meaning they didn't have revelations from God and they didn't have priesthood. But there was a PROMISE that every descendant of Cain who was good man/woman would be saved from the curse.
In a quote you gave, Brigham Young said that descendants of Cain were cursed with blackness? Did he talk about skin color? I don't know. It is not explained in the quote. "Blackness" can have spiritual meaning "fallen state". And this is the curse. When we are in fallen state we are separated from God

P.S. It was never Church doctrine that black skin is the curse. But there are many Mormons like BeccaBoo who believe in things that are NOT doctrine at all. For example, many Mormons believe that to drink Pepsi is actually a sin or breaking God's law -Word of Wisdom.
Many Mormons do not understand many principles and doctrines. I am sure I am one of them.
Many Church critics say things that are based on what many Mormons wrongly believe but it was never Church doctrine.
Again, when Young said that they were cursed with blackness did he talk about skin color or about spiritual blackness? Do you know?


(I am not screaming)IT IS VERY HARD TO UNDERSTAND LDS DOCTRINE by reading some quotes that are taken out of context. Also many quotes are opinions of men and not part of doctrine.

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