The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-05-2017, 12:14 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(21-05-2017 11:48 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  ...
There's thousands of years of human history and traditions shaping our society.Same-sex marriage flies in the face of the foundation of social traditions.

I'm a traditionalist too.

I long for the days before the puritans.

Imagine how life would be like if we returned to traditional Ancient Greek values.

Big Grin

Greek values? Like in....oooohhhhh now i get it. Wink Thumbsup

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Deesse23's post
22-05-2017, 04:58 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  In my area issue of homosexuality is known only through news and social media and sometimes in movies,documentaries etc.People don't face it in everyday life so it is an issue that doesn't concern them.I don't think that they will look at it favourably if faced in real life.

Sounds like what you are saying is that gays in your area must remain closeted or face backlash.

Quote:In society marriage between man and woman is recognised and celebrated.

Nothing about that has to change, Now you just also get to recognize and celebrate marriages between two men or two women. More celebration is good.

Quote:The concept of marriage is inseparable from human ability to procreate, child nurturing etc.

Actually, it is pretty easily separated. Many couples want to marry but not have children. Some people want children but not marriage. Gay couples can nurture children just as well as straight couples.

Quote:As a conservative and traditionalist I don't think same-sex marriage would fit into social dynamics,social traditions etc. unless some changes occur.

The only change needed is for people to realize that some people are gay and that they deserve the same rights to live openly as people who aren't gay. If anybody doesn't want to marry somebody of the same sex then they don't have to but it isn't any of their business if somebody else does.

Quote:There's thousands of years of human history and traditions shaping our society.Same-sex marriage flies in the face of the foundation of social traditions.

There's thousands of years of discrimination and persecution of gays by people who apparently felt threatened by the fact that some people have different desires. Tradition is no excuse to continue that sort of thinking.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 8 users Like unfogged's post
22-05-2017, 05:11 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  In society marriage between man and woman is recognised and celebrated.The concept of marriage is inseparable from human ability to procreate, child nurturing etc.

The only things that needs to change, are the people that don't think it should be celebrated.

Marriage in itself is defined as: "the legally or formally recognized union of two people as partners in a personal relationship." Why should that be any different over a man and women getting married? Nobody has EVER said that having 2 people of the same sex getting married somehow devalues straight people marrying. Only complete berks of the highest order who think its some sort of exclusive club they thought would never let the gays into, are the ones effected.

The more 2 people of the same sex can marry, and do so publicly, the more it won't be an issue.

Having problems with your computer? Visit the Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like OakTree500's post
22-05-2017, 05:25 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Let us remember exactly why marriage became a legal precedent; to make sure women and their property and the children they bore belonged legally to the man.

The question then is, why did marriage become some sacred tradition supported by the monotheisms? The most obvious answer is that the monotheisms each denigrate the female sex and were designed to keep them under control of the male sex.

Marriage itself is not "inseparable from human ability to procreate, child nurturing etc." which is not to say that two adults rearing children doesn't work better.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Jeanne's post
22-05-2017, 05:36 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Okay...marriage comment over, here is a delicate question:

It has been my limited experience that men have an "scary-icky" problem with the thought of two men having sex...but somehow not with the thought of two women having sex.

Even men who have very good friends that are homosexual... Often in their buddy-joking there may be a bit of "scary-icky" stuff going on.

Movie scenes have a similar effect with loving male sex or male on male rape being nearly intolerable for men to watch, yet not scenes showing loving female sex or male rape on female.

I haven't noticed this with women. Do I just have very limited experience or is this something real?

And...I have to offer kudos to the OP for his valorous attempts to rid himself of homophobia and other scars of his religious indoctrination. Love your heart and carry on in your new life.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Jeanne's post
22-05-2017, 05:56 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(22-05-2017 05:25 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Let us remember exactly why marriage became a legal precedent; to make sure women and their property and the children they bore belonged legally to the man.

The question then is, why did marriage become some sacred tradition supported by the monotheisms? The most obvious answer is that the monotheisms each denigrate the female sex and were designed to keep them under control of the male sex.

Marriage itself is not "inseparable from human ability to procreate, child nurturing etc." which is not to say that two adults rearing children doesn't work better.
It had (and has) as much to do with inheritance as it did with ownership per se. That is why some cultures, e.g., the British, were so obsessed with marrying into "good" families. It is not as if women were not benefitted by such arrangements, so much as that it was a very narrow benefit that traded off their autonomy for a gilded cage. For the minority of women who found this a fair exchange, that was fine, but even for them, the lack of other options amounted to bondage, because they were engaging in "choiceless choices".

I think it's also important to realize that marriage in and of itself isn't incompatible with power and property and employment and wage equality. The problem with it is the symbolism that has become attached, which takes several generations to fade. My current marriage for example superficially violates what my wife always taught her daughter, which is never to be "dependent" on a man. My wife's income at present is negligible, due to health issues mainly. Today, we don't have cultural norms and rules telling us how to handle that, but simple courtesy and fairness suggest that managing finances as equals means compromise and humility regardless of whether our incomes just so happened to be roughly equivalent. What it ends up being is that we have a common "pot" of money and assets regardless of what percentage each of us contributes to it at the moment, and we manage it as equal stewards, not based on what percentage each of us earned.

At one point in her life, my wife was the sole wage earner helping her ex through graduate school; now I am the sole wage earner, taking up financial slack to help her through a period when she is unable to contribute as much as she'd like. This seems like the whole point of marriage; just because opportunity is equal doesn't mean there aren't times when opportunity doesn't happen to FALL equally on both.

Another way to handle that is for each spouse to keep their respective earnings / finances separate, but that is far less efficient for obvious reasons; the whole point of marriage is to cast your lots in together. I would argue that the modern significance of marriage is permitting this intermingling synergy of finances and governing the rules for who the wealth flows to on the death of various parties. If I were to drop dead right now my wife would get all of our finances, not just some percentage based on her earnings during our marriage. On both our deaths it is divided among our living children without regard to whose biological child each was. That is as it should be.

I guess my point is that some people make the mistake of thinking marriage perpetuates gender inequality when it can just as well promote equality and provide cushion against inequality that arises based on mere happenstance. Marriage isn't the enemy, it is deeper attitudes and ideologies.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like mordant's post
22-05-2017, 06:00 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  In my area issue of homosexuality is known only through news and social media and sometimes in movies,documentaries etc.People don't face it in everyday life so it is an issue that doesn't concern them.I don't think that they will look at it favourably if faced in real life.

So is "your area" The Islamic Republic of Iran? Because you sound like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, when he said "We don't have homosexuals, like in your country". Why not? Because they kill any of them that step out of the closet, that's why. But other than in Rednecktonville, Alabama, where I'm assuming you live, it is something most people do "face" (wtf?) in real life-- most people nowadays know someone who is gay, or respect an actor, scientist, singer, businessman, etc., who is/was a homosexual.

To those who won't "look at it favourably [sic]", I'll ask: where would this world be without Alan Turing, Freddy Mercury, Sally Ride, Ellen Degeneres, Bayard Rustin, Oscar Wilde, and of course George "Ohhh myyy" Takei... to name just a few off the top of my head! The fact is that most people, once they got over the fearmongering by religious leaders and homophobes, and came to realize that gay people are just like everyone else, have had an overwhelmingly favorable reaction to the change in the permissiveness of marriage categories, literally flipping from an almost 2-to-1 disapproval to 2-to-1 approval in the last 15 years:

http://www.pewforum.org/2016/05/12/chang...-marriage/

(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  In society marriage between man and woman is recognised and celebrated.

True. What's the point here? Oooooooooh you mean you think this is the only type that should be recognized and celebrated. Well, bless your bigoted lil' heart!

Seriously, I'm not just being funny. Until very recently in history (1967) it was illegal to have mixed-race marriages, a practice called "miscegenation". The Supreme Court struck that down, too, and a great many people (mostly in the South) predicted the collapse of all of society, then, too. You'll need to come up with something better than "that's how we've always done it" unless you also want to defend anti-miscegenation laws.

(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  The concept of marriage is inseparable from human ability to procreate, child nurturing etc.

How can you say this with a straight face? Seriously! What, you've never seen old people, or otherwise infertile, couples get married? Do you find the marriage of two 90 year olds to be less valid than that of a young, fertile couple? Nobody but anti-gay bigots think of marriage as "inseparable from human ability to procreate", and it's just an excuse for you; I don't think you really believe that, either. The concept of marriage is many hundreds of things, spelled out in law, and is a contract between two people under laws crafted by a secular state, only a few of which have to do with provisions for "child nurturing".

(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  As a conservative and traditionalist I don't think same-sex marriage would fit into social dynamics,social traditions etc. unless some changes occur.There's thousands of years of human history and traditions shaping our society.Same-sex marriage flies in the face of the foundation of social traditions.

Well if you really want to go with "thousands of years of human history and traditions", we should have polygamous marriage, with women having zero choice in the matter (being considered property) and with most men never having a relationship at all as they're worked half to death all their lives while the wealthier men get multiple wives, as described in the Bible... among other places. Heck, the Bible tells us that David had two wives before his story even begins, and throughout the time he was running from Saul as God's Chosen... then of course, he picked up more once he gained power. But let's not forget that his son, Solomon, famously married half the Ancient Near East, if we believe the legends recorded there.

Marriage as we know it, the whole concept of the "nuclear family", is relatively new in history, as it was based on a Christian blend of the Hebrew societal views about sticking women under a husband as soon as their pubes grew in, combined with the Roman Patrician view about the role of women in maintaining proper bloodlines (the same obsession with male lines that the Jews had). [Edit to Add: And, as Jeanne just so eloquently put it, were to make sure that men's property-- the wife and children she produced-- were legally "owned" by him as property.] But if you read any books about the history of relationships, not to mention a few books on human biology and sexuality, you'll find that the situation is much more complex than the "upperclass twits" of those two societies would have us believe, and that marriage and relationships have been just as complex throughout history as today... effectively, the only time your "ideal" situation has existed is when a class of leaders (for religious or wealth reasons) have enforced it at sword-point. Not a ringing endorsement!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
22-05-2017, 06:05 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(22-05-2017 12:14 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Greek values? Like in....oooohhhhh now i get it. Wink Thumbsup

Which would be a society only second to Saudi Arabia when it comes to women's rights.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-05-2017, 06:19 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2017 06:24 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(22-05-2017 05:36 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  It has been my limited experience that men have an "scary-icky" problem with the thought of two men having sex...but somehow not with the thought of two women having sex.

Even men who have very good friends that are homosexual... Often in their buddy-joking there may be a bit of "scary-icky" stuff going on.

Movie scenes have a similar effect with loving male sex or male on male rape being nearly intolerable for men to watch, yet not scenes showing loving female sex or male rape on female.

I haven't noticed this with women. Do I just have very limited experience or is this something real?

No, it's very real. It comes from a lifetime of internalizing anti-gay bigotry and fearing that you'll be called out as one-- even if you're not! Boys are conditioned to be terrified of being seen as too "effeminate" (and we wonder how so many men pick up attitudes of hatred toward actual females and things associated with femininity), and falling into a target category for "smear the queer", a world of verbal and often physical abuse by the other children. For the real gays, this identification-and-abuse process is the very real nightmare that drives so many of them to commit suicide. Sad

For men who may have tendencies in the middle, who are not 1 or 6 on the Kinsey Scale, it can be a living nightmare of self-oppression and fear that others will "discover" their true nature-- these can be the most dangerous men, as it often spirals into a battle to be the most demonstrably straight, including a vicious hatred of "those queers" that is projected outward for everyone else to see/hear. That's why you see so many examples of anti-gay crusaders who spend 20 years "curing" gays with sermons and pray-away-the-gay torture camps they founded, only to be caught sucking dick. The priests trying desperately to suppress their "unnatural" (to them) and "sinful" desires finally break and start touching the children around them. The politician who tirelessly opposed pro-gay legislation is caught with male prostitutes... and so on and so on.

Even for 100% straight men who become adults and finally think about the issue, and finally realize that there was nothing for them to fear about their own sexuality or those who have a different one, and get rid of all their bigotries toward LGBTQ people, they will still have a hard time combating that internalized fear when confronted with such images and concepts, especially when it's in a violent way. As terrible as the rape of a woman is, no different than that of a man, it's not an image that fundamentally challenges his own identity as a man because he knows he's not a rapist and has never worried that he might be called one-- he simply loathes the individual who commits the heinous act on the screen and pities the victim. [Edit: But when watching male-male rape, he is forced to confront the fact that if such a thing ever happened to him, he would potentially lose his identity as a "real man", having been violated "like a woman", in the eyes of other men. That's why most men don't have an issue with lesbianism but are freaked out by men penetrating one another-- something that's only a woman's "place", to be penetrated. Some men even freak out over a doctor or even their own wife penetrating his rectum with a finger to stimulate the prostate! My point here is that male homophobia and sexism against women are closely linked, though most don't realize it.]

Homophobia demonstrably harms men and women in our society far more than the most dire predictions by the opponents of homosexuality.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like RocketSurgeon76's post
22-05-2017, 07:24 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
"No, it's very real. It comes from a lifetime of internalizing anti-gay bigotry and fearing that you'll be called out as one-- even if you're not! Boys are conditioned to be terrified of being seen as too "effeminate" (and we wonder how so many men pick up attitudes of hatred toward actual females and things associated with femininity)"

One of the more upsetting things I have witnessed as a parent is the attitude of other parents when their boys enjoy doing so-called 'girl things' i.e. play with dolls, dress in princess dresses or 'girly' colors. I recall one dad talking about his son on the playground w/ a sneer on his face about how his mom lets him wear their daughter's Little Mermaid dress.
I also see parents push their kids into traditional gender roles at very young ages. Start the boys playing football and the girls cheerleading when they are 5 years old.

And I have to say, it is typically coming from both parents, not just the hyper masculine dads.

"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu."

[Image: parodia-michal-aniol-flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like ShadowProject's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: