The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
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22-05-2017, 09:53 PM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
While writing my OP I was thinking of traditional marriage rituals[chinese,japanese,indian,tribal] in my mind.Both male and female have different part in rituals.The tradition rituals makes no sense if both participants are male/female.Straight marriage is rooted in long history of traditions .In traditional society marriage rituals and etiquettes are socially very important and skipping on it is not looked upon favourably. [There are social dynamics and values at play here].Same-sex marriage flies in the face of all traditions--->it means it has no roots in tradition and culture.Same-sex marriage is a new thing so it has no equivalent rituals and traditions associated with it and hence no relation to cultural traditions.So it doesn't relate social dynamics associated with ritual marrriage.My point was not to reject same sex marriage on the basis of traditions but my views about my community.Since I was thinking in narrow terms[my community and marriage rituals] I missed on many angles through which to look at this issue.I think I didn't clarify that in my previous post.
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23-05-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Where are you from Sea Tiger? Just curious. I live in Taiwan where this has been a big issue lately, and which may soon become the first Asian nation to legalize SSM. Interestingly (and annoyingly for many) some of the strongest opposition has come from non-traditional fundamentalist Christian groups, which make up a relatively small percentage of the population here.

If the only question was traditional marriage, I'm not sure this would be an issue at all. Flying in the face of tradition would be pointless. However in most modern societies marriage has become a legal construct. Whether legal marriages are accepted as traditional is pretty irrelevant. If societies are to claim to fairness under the law, then the law has to be the primary consideration and not tradition.
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23-05-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(20-05-2017 08:48 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  That is brilliant, I really respect your personal growth here Smile

It is incredibly liberating, both emotionally and intellectually.

Thank you for saying so, it really helps and I'm gonna bask in the validation for a moment because it is rough chucking a lifetime's paradigm and rebuilding Smile
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23-05-2017, 03:19 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(21-05-2017 10:34 PM)sea_tiger Wrote:  In my area issue of homosexuality is known only through news and social media and sometimes in movies,documentaries etc.People don't face it in everyday life so it is an issue that doesn't concern them.I don't think that they will look at it favourably if faced in real life.
Quote:Despite this, as a conservative Republican, it was clear that gay marriage could represent a major turning point and revolution of the way society defines marriage.
In society marriage between man and woman is recognised and celebrated.The concept of marriage is inseparable from human ability to procreate, child nurturing etc.
As a conservative and traditionalist I don't think same-sex marriage would fit into social dynamics,social traditions etc. unless some changes occur.There's thousands of years of human history and traditions shaping our society.Same-sex marriage flies in the face of the foundation of social traditions.

If you're interested, I can share with you a podcast of a mother whose son comes out to her as gay. It is as that moment that homosexuality becomes real to her. She understands that her son is good and his desire to love is good and that he can have goodness even in a homosexual relationship. The biggest tradition is one of family supporting and taking care of each other.

I used to worry about my kids, if one of them were gay, how they would cope in the world and especially in a tradition that rejections gay relationships. I hoped that, if I stayed at their side and emphasized the core of the gospel of Jesus Christ, we'd find a way to navigate life despite their unacceptable desires.

What I was doing was pinning all my hopes for the well-being of my child on the legitimacy of the LDS Church. That may be why the legitimacy of the LDS tradition loomed so incredibly essential to me at this time of my life.
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23-05-2017, 03:21 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(22-05-2017 05:36 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Okay...marriage comment over, here is a delicate question:

It has been my limited experience that men have an "scary-icky" problem with the thought of two men having sex...but somehow not with the thought of two women having sex.

Even men who have very good friends that are homosexual... Often in their buddy-joking there may be a bit of "scary-icky" stuff going on.

Movie scenes have a similar effect with loving male sex or male on male rape being nearly intolerable for men to watch, yet not scenes showing loving female sex or male rape on female.

I haven't noticed this with women. Do I just have very limited experience or is this something real?

And...I have to offer kudos to the OP for his valorous attempts to rid himself of homophobia and other scars of his religious indoctrination. Love your heart and carry on in your new life.

Thank you...one day at a time! I still have one child in the church. He is 16 and we want to respect his journey. Do you know if there are many deconverting Aspies on this forum, btw? A mom wants to know Smile
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23-05-2017, 03:22 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(22-05-2017 05:56 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(22-05-2017 05:25 AM)Jeanne Wrote:  Let us remember exactly why marriage became a legal precedent; to make sure women and their property and the children they bore belonged legally to the man.

The question then is, why did marriage become some sacred tradition supported by the monotheisms? The most obvious answer is that the monotheisms each denigrate the female sex and were designed to keep them under control of the male sex.

Marriage itself is not "inseparable from human ability to procreate, child nurturing etc." which is not to say that two adults rearing children doesn't work better.
It had (and has) as much to do with inheritance as it did with ownership per se. That is why some cultures, e.g., the British, were so obsessed with marrying into "good" families. It is not as if women were not benefitted by such arrangements, so much as that it was a very narrow benefit that traded off their autonomy for a gilded cage. For the minority of women who found this a fair exchange, that was fine, but even for them, the lack of other options amounted to bondage, because they were engaging in "choiceless choices".

I think it's also important to realize that marriage in and of itself isn't incompatible with power and property and employment and wage equality. The problem with it is the symbolism that has become attached, which takes several generations to fade. My current marriage for example superficially violates what my wife always taught her daughter, which is never to be "dependent" on a man. My wife's income at present is negligible, due to health issues mainly. Today, we don't have cultural norms and rules telling us how to handle that, but simple courtesy and fairness suggest that managing finances as equals means compromise and humility regardless of whether our incomes just so happened to be roughly equivalent. What it ends up being is that we have a common "pot" of money and assets regardless of what percentage each of us contributes to it at the moment, and we manage it as equal stewards, not based on what percentage each of us earned.

At one point in her life, my wife was the sole wage earner helping her ex through graduate school; now I am the sole wage earner, taking up financial slack to help her through a period when she is unable to contribute as much as she'd like. This seems like the whole point of marriage; just because opportunity is equal doesn't mean there aren't times when opportunity doesn't happen to FALL equally on both.

Another way to handle that is for each spouse to keep their respective earnings / finances separate, but that is far less efficient for obvious reasons; the whole point of marriage is to cast your lots in together. I would argue that the modern significance of marriage is permitting this intermingling synergy of finances and governing the rules for who the wealth flows to on the death of various parties. If I were to drop dead right now my wife would get all of our finances, not just some percentage based on her earnings during our marriage. On both our deaths it is divided among our living children without regard to whose biological child each was. That is as it should be.

I guess my point is that some people make the mistake of thinking marriage perpetuates gender inequality when it can just as well promote equality and provide cushion against inequality that arises based on mere happenstance. Marriage isn't the enemy, it is deeper attitudes and ideologies.

We all evolve, so why can't marriage?
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23-05-2017, 03:23 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(22-05-2017 11:41 AM)kim Wrote:  
(20-05-2017 07:17 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  ---
It’s a new day. Time to live bigger and better.

Hug
Here's to living positively, BeccaBoo!

Thanks for the wonderful reminder that it takes only the slightest bit of effort to make a big difference. Shy

Whoop! Oh yes, I so need the reminder on a daily basis!
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23-05-2017, 03:29 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(22-05-2017 06:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
BeccaBoo Wrote:I assumed that they, the protectors and stewards of the precious flock of humanity here on earth, had agonized over this issue
Why would you assume this?

BeccaBoo Wrote:I assumed that the First Presidency had gone to the Lord and pled with the Lord for these children and asked for guidance and that they had received a “No” from the Lord.
What in the world are you talking about?!!! Plead about what?
BTW, They pray for ALL children of God ALL THE TIME.
Are you sure you were LDS?

By assuming that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles had prayed and pled with God over this issue of homosexuality, I was making the most charitable assumption about them as I could.

I was assuming they were listening to the cries of suffering members.

I was assuming they were watching and aware of people who are gay, who want to have committed, healthy relationships between same sexes and still participate in the church.

So, I was assuming that they were making use of the intellectual faculties to be aware of what is publicly known but also what is privately shared with them. I was assuming that they were making use of the compassion that the Spirit would pour into them as stewards of the children of God on earth.

They surely were alerted to the questions, so it is reasonable to assume they would treat the questions with dignity and faith and love.
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23-05-2017, 04:14 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2017 04:19 AM by sea_tiger.)
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Quote:I used to worry about my kids, if one of them were gay, how they would cope in the world and especially in a tradition that rejections gay relationships
That's the issue I was most concerned with.What should a parent do?
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23-05-2017, 04:45 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 04:14 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  
Quote:I used to worry about my kids, if one of them were gay, how they would cope in the world and especially in a tradition that rejections gay relationships
That's the issue I was most concerned with.What should a parent do?
You should stand tall by them, if that's who they are, and be an example to others as well.

I live in the UK, and whilst being gay is widely more accepted than in other countries, many years ago it wasn't. Not only was it illegal at one point, but it was socially frowned upon as well, and would often end in a gay person being attacked. It was due to brave men/women standing up for their beliefs and protesting/getting the message out there that people who prefer partners of the same sex are also just people like everybody else. That and those who stood by them to help spread this message, be it gay or straight.

I was asked by my wife once, "what if our daughter is gay?" . My reply was "so what if she is. I love her, and am proud of her no matter what she is or what she chooses to do with her life".

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