The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
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23-05-2017, 07:42 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
"But it's tradition" = Garbage answer. In this day and age the answer to that is "...And?".

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23-05-2017, 07:54 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 07:08 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  
Quote:Same sex relationships exist across nature in every species in nature. If YOU have the right to the legal affirmation of your relationship, so does everyone else. You are not better. You are not special. There is not a shred of evidence that the legal affirmation of SS marriage has ANY negative impact on any aspect of human society.
I agree with every word but I was not discussing about this.I was referring to a different thing.My point of view was different.I think I am making the point unsalvageable.

What "different thing" were you referring to ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-05-2017, 07:55 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2017 08:12 AM by sea_tiger.)
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 07:14 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I think what may be confusing people is that you said you were a traditionalist. This wouldn't be relevant unless you were saying that you were personally against same sex marriage.

I don't understand how being a traditionalist can work. It's just being completely against any sort of change, no matter how beneficial it may be. Things can never improve, and injustices can never be resolved, under such a system.

I call myself traditionalist because I love traditional customs & rituals-naming a baby, marriage-rituals, death rituals etc.Traditionalist doesn't mean I am against change.I am fairly influenced by present culture.I don't agree with many old way of doing things,traditional virtues etc.
I am not against same sex marriage but I don't see it mixing in with the traditional ritual associated with marriage.It can have legal validation but social/cultural acceptance is still an uphill battle.Social life is much easier if social acceptance is present.Birth, marriage,death rituals are in hand of the church.For any person skipping on church marriage and opting for legal marriage would lead to alienation from church community and relatives.A person can brave it and live independently of community but it may lead to future problems for his wife or children.Its not easy going against social norms.If the person follows the social norms and traditions he will earn social acceptance,respect among community and the church will become a backbone of support.It doesn't mean that changes are not occuring. Its just that same sex marriage[SSM] is a giant leap.Even people who are not against SSM would find it hard to openly support it.When I say it is not rooted in tradition ,it is not about legal marriage but more about social dynamics/traditions at play. When I say I don't see SSM and tradition mixing in together , it is a social situation I observe around me.I don't know what changes will occur or if a new normal is reached.Legal acceptance and social acceptance are different issues.What I mean with tradition may be different to what others think of it.[In traditional societies small change can lead to many other problems.] But again I am missing other aspects to view this issue.
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23-05-2017, 07:58 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
BeccaBoo Wrote:We all evolve, so why can't marriage?
Good question.
I am surprised you have no answer.
Are you sure you were LDS?

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23-05-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 07:55 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  I am not against same sex marriage but I don't see it mixing in with the traditional ritual associated with marriage.It can have legal validation but social/cultural acceptance is still an uphill battle.

Every culture has its traditions and rituals, but the "west" has taken to same sex marriage ok. Nothing has to change, just that another person of the same sex is involved.

Part of the change is this: It WILL be an uphill battle, but eventually it will be socially accepted. You have to speak about your beliefs and why they should change. Set an example to others. Half the time, you find that nobody is for or against anything in particular, they just follow the trend. Those who kick up a fuss are in the minority by themselves and soon disappear once everybody else is on board with change.

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23-05-2017, 08:04 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Quote:Every culture has its traditions and rituals, but the "west" has taken to same sex marriage ok. Nothing has to change, just that another person of the same sex is involved.
I agree but social acceptance is a different matter.
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23-05-2017, 08:12 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 08:04 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  
Quote:Every culture has its traditions and rituals, but the "west" has taken to same sex marriage ok. Nothing has to change, just that another person of the same sex is involved.
I agree but social acceptance is a different matter.

See the below on my last post:
Quote:Part of the change is this: It WILL be an uphill battle, but eventually it will be socially accepted. You have to speak about your beliefs and why they should change. Set an example to others. Half the time, you find that nobody is for or against anything in particular, they just follow the trend. Those who kick up a fuss are in the minority by themselves and soon disappear once everybody else is on board with change.

Again yes, Social acceptance is something, but it just takes time. Here in the UK it wasn't "socially acceptable" for a very long time, but it is now. Sure you still get the odd person being an ignorant dickhead, but overall it's fine. Those "offended" by anybody who is gay tends to be very old and/or set in their by-gone, garbage, no-reasoning ways.

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23-05-2017, 08:26 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(20-05-2017 07:17 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  I posted this as part of My Deconversion Story but, considering my past posts in this forum several years ago, I'd like to make it a bit more prominent. So, thanks to every person in the past who interacted with me here. Mea culpa.

Mormon Stories is a podcast hosted by former Mormon John Dehlin. The podcast evolved over the years as he evolved and as his views increasingly separated from Mormon orthodoxy. For his openness, he was excommunicated from the LDS Church. Yet Dehlin has continued the podcast, focusing recently on Mormons who are leaving the church, and in order to help others who are also deconverting feel less isolated, share their own intimate stories of Mormon experience and leaving Mormonism.

Dehlin recently interviewed Lance and Nicki Miles, a couple who describe their faith transition out of Mormonism. Lance’s story of rejecting his father, who came out as gay after decades of trying to morm the gay away, is both tragic and important. It is tremendously moving and compelling. I now feel like every moment used against love between people is wasted.

So, borrowing courage from Lance and Nicki Miles, I'd like to share my own story about leaving homophobia.

I started out from the homophobic double whammy perspective as a Mormon in the Bible Belt. I noticed from a young age that homophobia existed because my middle name is associated with homosexuality. The laughs and smirks during roll call at school clearly indicated this to me.

So I thought about the gay stigma and slowly peeled away the prevalent assumptions about gays. I threw away presumptions attaching homosexuality to pedophilia, to AIDS, and to promiscuity.

Despite this, as a conservative Republican, it was clear that gay marriage could represent a major turning point and revolution of the way society defines marriage. I became a committed opponent of same-sex marriage, and logged hundreds of internet hours researching and debating, many of them with gay, lesbian, bi, and transgender people. I listened, sometimes I listened better than other times. Yet, after several years, I deeply wanted same-sex couples to be able to have legal protections.

When SCOTUS finally ruled in favor of same-sex marriage, I was genuinely happy for those benefitting from the legalization of same-sex marriage.

After getting to know and to love many people who are not straight, I still cannot completely relate to a same-sex relationship, but I’ve also realized that this doesn’t change anything. Do we have to understand each other completely to be decent and kind? I hope not. Do I get it? Not totally, but so what. I want you to be able to live your life, to love, and to freely commit to another person if you want to.

This is where I was before I left the church. At that point as a believing Mormon, I would empathize with the Brethren. I assumed that they, the protectors and stewards of the precious flock of humanity here on earth, had agonized over this issue. I hoped that they were even more aware than I of the suffering, heartache, and struggle felt by those in the church who are not straight. I assumed that the First Presidency had gone to the Lord and pled with the Lord for these children and asked for guidance and that they had received a “No” from the Lord.

From the compassionate believing-Mormon perspective, I believed that we are were stuck with the Lord’s ban on acting out on homosexuality. I believed that this ban was a burden separating us, generating pain and hostility, and that we as disciples of Christ were charged to love through that gap, to bridge the separation.

From within that bubble, I started to really believe that there might be some higher purpose in this dilemma, that maybe Mormons, when they learned to love gays despite God's ban on their desires, would lead the way for all devotees around the world. I believed we would show Muslims, Baptists, and other Mormons how to love those separated from us and how to bridge the distance.

My belief in the church didn't break over these issues, but my belief broke.

From outside the Mormon bubble, the dilemma Mormons suffer over homosexuality is so much clearer, and is absolutely tragic. It's so useless, this suffering. There's no reason consistent with love and hope to believe God is banning homosexuality.

As an ex-Mormon, I keenly feel the pain of being untethered from the comfort of dogma and religious certainty. It is frightening. It is unstable. It is dark sometimes. Yet, it’s only dark, unstable, and frightening if I leave the thinking to Mormonism. Every day requires me to do the mental exercise of building my own game plan and values. It takes work to undo the Mormonism programming and rebuild my own thinking.

But there is an interesting thing that happens almost every day once I do this deliberate mental exercise: life gets so exciting, everything is more valuable. Time and opportunities are more precious and meaningful. I just have to remind myself to do it. And one of the very best things about being an ex-Mormon is being absolutely free of the cognitive and heart-dissonance of homophobia.

If you’re not straight, I’m sorry for the hurt I have contributed to your life. To everyone, I’m sorry for the hurt I have contributed to the world by carrying the water for homophobia.

It’s a new day. Time to live bigger and better.

-BeccaBoo

Thank you for taking the time to share. I've had somewhat similar experiences with overcoming homophobia, internalized because of my own religious upbringing. But I always had a soft spot in my heart for LGBTQ people. Religious and masculinity social programming caused me to repress and push away my own thoughts and feelings in such a way that I didn't deal with them until I was almost 30 years old and had extracted myself completely from religion. Then it was several years of deprogramming and dealing with my own thoughts and feelings.

I'm glad you've overcome it. And no, you don't have to understand it. You don't have to have an appreciation for gay sex to accept it and love and respect the people as people. You don't have to understand why a trans person is the way they are, or exactly what it feels like to deal with gender dysphoria, in order to love and respect them and the choices they are forced into making by their own biology. I'm glad you've come to that realization, because it's a hard one for many people to reach for some reason.

Best wishes, BeccaBoo- you seem like you've had quite the journey, too. Welcome to the other side! Life is still hard over here, but at least it's easier without pressure to fit into antiquated religious norms! Laugh out load
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23-05-2017, 08:50 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 07:55 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Legal acceptance and social acceptance are different issues.What I mean with tradition may be different to what others think of it.[In traditional societies small change can lead to many other problems.] But again I am missing other aspects to view this issue.

I think you're missing the point SeaTiger. I may understand your meaning and your intention, but you're unnecessarily creating a strawman here at best.

People in open gay relationships in most if not all cases aren't being traditional by definition. If they were concerned about being traditional, they wouldn't be in an open relationship to begin with! If they want to be OPEN about their relationship, and live as any other loving couple in a straightforward and honest way, social acceptance will be denied them whether they are married or not. What people want at this point is legal equality. Social acceptance is entirely irrelevant in this equation, and a question for another day that will not be resolved as easily as convincing a government to meet its implied obligation of providing maximal legal equality.

As far as the kids, pssssh I always figured. What I am concerned about is them being moral.
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23-05-2017, 09:12 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Quote:........you're unnecessarily creating a strawman here at best.........Social acceptance is entirely irrelevant in this equation.
Maybe I took a weird angle to look at issue at hand but what's the strawman here?
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