The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
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23-05-2017, 09:37 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 07:58 AM)Alla Wrote:  
BeccaBoo Wrote:We all evolve, so why can't marriage?
Good question.
I am surprised you have no answer.
Are you sure you were LDS?

It was a rhetorical question.

Of course marriage can evolve.

Why are you sceptical about me being LDS?
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23-05-2017, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2017 09:58 AM by tempogain.)
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 09:12 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Maybe I took a weird angle to look at issue at hand but what's the strawman here?

Social acceptance. I'm not saying you were intentionally trying to manipulate the issue, but you seem to be asserting the importance of an issue which actually has very little relevance to the matter at hand.

Maybe look at it this way. You seem to come from a traditional society. Is social acceptance for gays out of the closet a reality there?Would marriage be something that would prevent social acceptance from being a reality? If the issue of marriage would just go away, would social acceptance follow in its wake?
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23-05-2017, 10:12 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 07:55 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  I am not against same sex marriage but I don't see it mixing in with the traditional ritual associated with marriage.

So what? Unless you place more value on the rituals than on people bring happy that doesn't matter.

Quote:It can have legal validation but social/cultural acceptance is still an uphill battle.

Change is often an uphill battle but harping on how it may require traditions to change doesn't help. Yes, traditions and rituals will need to change. Anybody who thinks that should be a consideration in the adoption of legal SSM has their priorities wrong.

Quote:Social life is much easier if social acceptance is present.

True, but you aren't likely to get social acceptance first so unless you are saying we should wait for that I don't see much of a point.

Quote:Birth, marriage,death rituals are in hand of the church.

Not as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:For any person skipping on church marriage and opting for legal marriage would lead to alienation from church community and relatives.

Again, the way you get social change is by standing up for it, not by knuckling under to bigoted traditions.

Quote:A person can brave it and live independently of community but it may lead to future problems for his wife or children.Its not easy going against social norms.If the person follows the social norms and traditions he will earn social acceptance,respect among community and the church will become a backbone of support.

It often is not easy for people but the alternative is what exactly? Living a lie and hoping that the "community" will change by itself?

Quote:It doesn't mean that changes are not occuring. Its just that same sex marriage[SSM] is a giant leap.Even people who are not against SSM would find it hard to openly support it.

The more that do, the easier it gets.

Quote:When I say it is not rooted in tradition ,it is not about legal marriage but more about social dynamics/traditions at play. When I say I don't see SSM and tradition mixing in together , it is a social situation I observe around me.I don't know what changes will occur or if a new normal is reached.Legal acceptance and social acceptance are different issues.What I mean with tradition may be different to what others think of it.[In traditional societies small change can lead to many other problems.] But again I am missing other aspects to view this issue.

All I see is you promoting tradition and moral cowardice. Yes, bucking societal norms can make life difficult. Yes, for some the bar is high enough that they decide to hide who and what they are. That's all the more reason to overturn those traditions and rituals, not to carry on about how ingrained they may be.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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23-05-2017, 10:14 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 09:49 AM)tempogain Wrote:  
(23-05-2017 09:12 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Maybe I took a weird angle to look at issue at hand but what's the strawman here?

Social acceptance. I'm not saying you were intentionally trying to manipulate the issue, but you seem to be asserting the importance of an issue which actually has very little relevance to the matter at hand.

Maybe look at it this way. You seem to come from a traditional society. Is social acceptance for gays out of the closet a reality there?Would marriage be something that would prevent social acceptance from being a reality? If the issue of marriage would just go away, would social acceptance follow in its wake?
I think I am too self-conscious about social acceptance,[my atheism].I think that is the reason why I am asserting social acceptance.I am somewhat impulsive so I think I shot myself in the foot here.
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23-05-2017, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2017 10:22 AM by Vera.)
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 07:55 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Even people who are not against SSM would find it hard to openly support it.

Speak for your bigoted self and part of the world, if you don't mind. Some of us live in the 21st century.

Also, for fuck's sake, learn to use SPACES. What you're struggling to iterate is barely palatable as it is. Or are spaces against tradition, too? Facepalm

ETA:
Quote:I think I am too self-conscious about social acceptance,
The discussion isn't about YOU, though, is it?! It's about a part of humanity that's been vilified and persecuted for fucking centuries so your insecurities have no bearing on the subject in question whatsoever!

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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23-05-2017, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2017 02:25 PM by DLJ.)
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Quote:I think I am too self-conscious about social acceptance,[my atheism].I think that is the reason why I am asserting social acceptance.I am somewhat impulsive so I think I shot myself in the foot here.

It's okay. You're thinking about it or you wouldn't be posting.

I think that there are just situations when the well-being of people is more important than social awkwardness...it's like the rough spots that get smoothed over, but only after people decide the better way to go. Then it's not so awkward anymore.
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23-05-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
Quote:Speak for your bigoted self
Why 'bigoted' label for me?
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23-05-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 10:14 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  I think I am too self-conscious about social acceptance,[my atheism].I think that is the reason why I am asserting social acceptance.I am somewhat impulsive so I think I shot myself in the foot here.

I can see what you mean. I know in a lot of places atheism isn't accepted in a real sense. I'm lucky to live in Taiwan where I'm sure most people would laugh at you if you suggested they should spend a second of their day thinking about another person's religious beliefs or lack thereof.
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23-05-2017, 10:36 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 10:22 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Why 'bigoted' label for me?

Do you even *read* the incoherent gobbledygook that comes from beneath your fingers? No, no you do not get to tell *me* that even (!!!) I, one of those weird bunch who actually have no problem with anyone marrying whomever they want to, will "find it hard to openly support same-sex marriage".

Frankly, I shudder to think what disgusting, backwards part of the world you live in. Though maybe that would explain it. Because nothing else will, really.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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23-05-2017, 10:40 AM
RE: The Long, Slow Death of My Homophobia
(23-05-2017 10:36 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(23-05-2017 10:22 AM)sea_tiger Wrote:  Why 'bigoted' label for me?

Do you even *read* the incoherent gobbledygook that comes from beneath your fingers? No, no you do not get to tell *me* that even (!!!) I, one of those weird bunch who actually have no problem with anyone marrying whomever they want to, will "find it hard to openly support same-sex marriage".

Frankly, I shudder to think what disgusting, backwards part of the world you live in. Though maybe that would explain it. Because nothing else will, really.
I think this is a misunderstanding.
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