The Lord's Prayer
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15-07-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
(15-07-2016 10:36 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 10:08 AM)mgoering Wrote:  As my wife always notes, and I entirely agree with her, I analyze everything to a fault. But, given how many people recite this prayer week in and week out, isn't there at least a good percentage, who, like me, would question: "What the hell do these words mean?" The words they recite are: "And lead us not into temptation". Yes, it may be a bad translation, but, Jesus, aren't you a little curious about what you're asked to recite every week?

Indoctrination is a crazy thing.

They don't seem to quite understand the cannibalism thing either (consuming the body and blood of Jesus). The Catholic church I was going to a few years ago had a poster up in the lobby with quotes from the little kids who were about to have their First Communion. One little girl said "I can't wait to drink Jesus's blood!" That is either one creepy little girl, or she has no idea what that means -- and I suspect the adults really don't, either. It's just something that they've been indoctrinated into, and have been doing all their lives.

I have eaten the wafer both pre- and post- transubstantiation and it all tastes the same to me? Smile

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15-07-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
(15-07-2016 10:08 AM)mgoering Wrote:  As my wife always notes, and I entirely agree with her, I analyze everything to a fault. But, given how many people recite this prayer week in and week out, isn't there at least a good percentage, who, like me, would question: "What the hell do these words mean?" The words they recite are: "And lead us not into temptation". Yes, it may be a bad translation, but, Jesus, aren't you a little curious about what you're asked to recite every week?

Indoctrination is a crazy thing.

Almost no one questions what they see on a regular basis. For that matter, most people don't give more than a cursory glance at the unusual if it's outside their interest. Horses need blinders, people don't.



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15-07-2016, 12:40 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
(15-07-2016 10:51 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 10:36 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  They don't seem to quite understand the cannibalism thing either (consuming the body and blood of Jesus). The Catholic church I was going to a few years ago had a poster up in the lobby with quotes from the little kids who were about to have their First Communion. One little girl said "I can't wait to drink Jesus's blood!" That is either one creepy little girl, or she has no idea what that means -- and I suspect the adults really don't, either. It's just something that they've been indoctrinated into, and have been doing all their lives.

I have eaten the wafer both pre- and post- transubstantiation and it all tastes the same to me? Smile

Yeah, somewhere between Styrofoam and unflavored rice cakes. Or are those really the same thing anyway? Consider

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15-07-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
I think one of the original points made, about how this prayer immediately follows Jesus' admonition against those who pray in public, to be seen by others, makes it more than a bit ironic that this has become the definitive public prayer for being seen by others.

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15-07-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
(15-07-2016 01:55 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  That's the line that always gets me. So god will lead us into temptation unless we say to him, "please don't"?

In other words he's a twisted bastard who will tempt you with all manner of weird perversions unless you beg him not to?
Well, come to think if it:

   



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15-07-2016, 03:14 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
(15-07-2016 12:40 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 10:51 AM)mgoering Wrote:  I have eaten the wafer both pre- and post- transubstantiation and it all tastes the same to me? Smile

Yeah, somewhere between Styrofoam and unflavored rice cakes. Or are those really the same thing anyway? Consider

There is no convincing evidence that they are not the same.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-07-2016, 05:11 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
(15-07-2016 07:56 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 06:22 AM)jabeady Wrote:  Hang on a moment. In fairness, Jesus was a Jew talking to Jews. Now that I think about it, I've never heard a Jewish interpretation of this passage. And now that I think about *that*, I don't recall any Christian interpretation I may have once heard.



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I have a Jewish Annotated New Testament at home. If I remember when I get home tonight, I will try to look in there and see what they have to say about the "Our Father".

OK, I looked it up, and they don't say much about it. Most of the prayer is in line with contemporary Jewish thought. I don't read Greek, so I'm not sure what the original said, but "Lead us not into temptation" is most likely a mistranslation. My Jewish Annotated New Testament uses the NRSV translation, which renders that passage as "And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one." This is not so objectionable. God may test us (or "bring us to trial") from time to time, but this is not the same as "tempting" us. The annotators' only comment is to reference 2 Thessalonians 3:3, "But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one." and James 1:13, "No one, when tempted, should say, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.".

Note that the NRSV is not a "Jewish" translation. I am not aware that Jews have ever translated the Christian New Testament, and why should they? It wasn't written in Hebrew, and Jews do not consider it scripture.
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17-07-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
(16-07-2016 05:11 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(15-07-2016 07:56 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I have a Jewish Annotated New Testament at home. If I remember when I get home tonight, I will try to look in there and see what they have to say about the "Our Father".

OK, I looked it up, and they don't say much about it. Most of the prayer is in line with contemporary Jewish thought. I don't read Greek, so I'm not sure what the original said, but "Lead us not into temptation" is most likely a mistranslation. My Jewish Annotated New Testament uses the NRSV translation, which renders that passage as "And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one." This is not so objectionable. God may test us (or "bring us to trial") from time to time, but this is not the same as "tempting" us. The annotators' only comment is to reference 2 Thessalonians 3:3, "But the Lord is faithful; he will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one." and James 1:13, "No one, when tempted, should say, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.".

Note that the NRSV is not a "Jewish" translation. I am not aware that Jews have ever translated the Christian New Testament, and why should they? It wasn't written in Hebrew, and Jews do not consider it scripture.
Thanks. I was just wondering about the actual meaning and intent. As with anything else, it's better to base your judgement on reality than on perception.

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17-07-2016, 01:16 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
In regards to the Catholic liturgy. The "power and glory" part is in the liturgy but it is not at the end of the our father.
The way they do it is;
Our Father
Priest says a short prayer
For thine is the power...

So it is in there but is separate from the Our Father so when Catholics pray the Our Father, such as in the rosary, it is not included.

In regards to temtation, the greek word is Peirasmos which can mean temptation, trial, or test. It can mean a test of a man's fidelity, virtue, ability, or constancy and it is normally this meaning which is taken to be meant by the Our Father.

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17-07-2016, 01:20 PM
RE: The Lord's Prayer
In regards to the hand raising. In the rubrics for the mass, the priest raises his hands at the Our Father. While not necessarily part of the Charismatic movement they do often do the full congregation hand raising.
The whole congregation aspect began after Vatican II when much of the church became hippy. You will see many of the older members of the church doing it. The Charismatic movement is more of a conservative/traditional movement and the hand raising belongs more to the liberal trends In the church.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
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