The Lucid Spiritual Plane
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21-05-2013, 12:48 PM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
Quote:Not never, I said "never". ( somebody had just this in their signature around here Tongue ) And how would you define an extra effort? Just as well you might say women are good at managing their efforts economically to finish a given task even if it doesn't interest them, while guys squander their strength and do things in excess.
You seem to be misunderstanding me. My entire problem was that I object to generalizations about ALL WOMEN, good or bad.

Quote:Don't worry, I'm not social enough to be a racist. Racism takes lots of emotions and experience. So do all the good and bad biases. That's what it takes to have a social framework.
I am saying that racism, much like sexism, is based on generalizations about a large group of people, rather than dealing with people as individuals. That's the problem. "Women are ____," is comparable to "Black people are ____," in that you are totally ignoring the differences between individuals in favor of stereotyping the entire group.

Quote:Wait! That wasn't even what I was saying! I said the arrogant jerks have normal, healthy brains, not you. (so they're responsible for how they behave)
Haha! Well, then, nevermind... ^_^

Quote:I can't, I only drink when there is a social framework for that. (someone's throwing a party) Without social framework I don't know what to drink, when, why, and who's paying for it.
You can always drink the same thing every time. When I was a drunk in college, I went to the bar by myself at noon or between classes, and order rum and coke every time. But that's neither here nor there.

Quote:Here's something for you, to illustrate a point. This one's a turn on
I don't watch youtube on this computer, shitty speakers. Are you sure you don't mean "demisexual" and sapiosexual, if you need someone to be intelligent and you need to get to know them first?
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21-05-2013, 02:17 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 02:50 PM by Luminon.)
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(21-05-2013 12:48 PM)amyb Wrote:  You seem to be misunderstanding me. My entire problem was that I object to generalizations about ALL WOMEN, good or bad.
Well, I wasn't actually generalizing. I referred to a very specific group of people - the people I have ever met. Maybe some of them had secretly a very intelligent blog, but I doubt that.
For most of my life I lived in what essentially is a Christian countryside. Christian countryside borderlands aren't exactly sources of university material. An intellectual in there may easily feel like an atheist in Jesusland.

(21-05-2013 12:48 PM)amyb Wrote:  I am saying that racism, much like sexism, is based on generalizations about a large group of people, rather than dealing with people as individuals. That's the problem. "Women are ____," is comparable to "Black people are ____," in that you are totally ignoring the differences between individuals in favor of stereotyping the entire group.
You know what? Racism may actually have its reasons. The problem with people is, they form social groups. Social groups come in many sizes and flavors, some we call churches, gangs, tribes, nations... One of the things they do is to make all people in their group behave in a similar way. If it's a bad way, it makes a big problem because there's going to be many such people.
Furthermore, social groups have this like/dislike principle, which makes them inherently discriminating against competitive social groups. Some forms of this competition we call racism, Sionism, nationalism, class conflict and so on. It is known that anti-Jewish racism essentially followed downturns of German economy, for example. When society is crumbling, the fault lines run along the social group borders.

So to a great extent we can and have to generalize. Society is not homogenous and social groups stamp their isms of living on people, steal their individuality. Actually not, most people are not born being individuals. They are born as units of capacity and pre-disposition, their free will and self-awareness and social awareness is next to nothing. And many social groups make sure it stays that way.
I am something else. I was born neurologically isolated from social groups. I can only see them from the outside, never be a part of them. Atheists are the raw material sucked into church, processed, sucked dry and ejected at high velocity out of the faith. In that last phase they are similar to me, except I am an atheist of all groups. All but perhaps one that has no name, only intention of concerned individuals.

(21-05-2013 12:48 PM)amyb Wrote:  You can always drink the same thing every time. When I was a drunk in college, I went to the bar by myself at noon or between classes, and order rum and coke every time. But that's neither here nor there.
You know what? I actually don't even like the stuff. It tastes awful. And it has so many disadvantages (no stable income right now) that drinking it is just a too big tradeoff.
Just remember, I'm the guy who can directly stimulate the pleasure centers in his brain just by sitting calmly for a moment. Just like many of the monks and hermits of history used to do. That's a pretty strong competition to barkeepers.

(21-05-2013 12:48 PM)amyb Wrote:  I don't watch youtube on this computer, shitty speakers. Are you sure you don't mean "demisexual" and sapiosexual, if you need someone to be intelligent and you need to get to know them first?
You are right, I just looked it up now. Demisexual and sapiosexual, that sounds much like me. Probably not 100 %, but in practice it works out so.
Thanks for a new label that nobody in my country knows Big Grin
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21-05-2013, 02:33 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 02:40 PM by amyb.)
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
Quote:You know what? Racism may actually have its reasons. The problem with people is, they form social groups. Social groups come in many sizes and flavors, some we call churches, gangs, tribes, nations... One of the things they do is to make all people in their group behave in a similar way. If it's a bad way, it makes a big problem because there's going to be many such people.
Race =/= culture. I think this confusion is the biggest reason for racism.

Quote:So to a great extent we can and have to generalize.
You can generalize on cultural practices, not races. There is a big difference.

Quote:I am something else. I was born neurologically isolated from social groups. I can only see them from the outside, never be a part of them.
The more you say this, the more I think you don't want to integrate into humanity. You seem entirely more focused on your differences from people than your similarities. If all you do is focus on how you are unable to interact with people, maybe it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe you could get a hobby so you'd have something in common with people, therefore, something to talk about, rather than ruminating on your inability to read people. You don't have to read people's emotions if you already have something to talk about.

Quote:You are right, I just looked it up now. Demisexual and sapiosexual, that sounds very much like me.
Thanks for a new label that nobody in my country knows
I learned these terms from my time spent on asexuality forums. If you demisexual, you may or may not want to look into such forums.

[quote]You know what? I actually don't even like the stuff. It tastes awful. And it has so many disadvantages (no stable income right now) that drinking it is just a too big tradeoff.[quote]
I know, and it just feels like money wasted. This is why I stopped drinking (except on holidays, etc).
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21-05-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
I can't help but wonder what country you live in and what age you are.

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21-05-2013, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 03:29 PM by Luminon.)
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(21-05-2013 02:33 PM)amyb Wrote:  Race =/= culture. I think this confusion is the biggest reason for racism.
Yeah. There are genetical Gypsies for example, who live as citizens of mainstream society, who have a job, a nice home and family and their children go to school. But they are typically out of touch with their 50-member tribal half-nomadic families who used to visit without warning and eat all their food and borrow stuff because they have an entirely different concept of private property and good manners.

(21-05-2013 02:33 PM)amyb Wrote:  You can generalize on cultural practices, not races. There is a big difference.
There is, but culture is usually visual and what is more visual than racial appearance? Children as young as 3 years recognize a different skin color. Then they grow into adults who need someone on whom to blame the economic crises.

(21-05-2013 02:33 PM)amyb Wrote:  The more you say this, the more I think you don't want to integrate into humanity. You seem entirely more focused on your differences from people than your similarities. If all you do is focus on how you are unable to interact with people, maybe it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe you could get a hobby so you'd have something in common with people, therefore, something to talk about, rather than ruminating on your inability to read people. You don't have to read people's emotions if you already have something to talk about.
I have a form of autism. It's not a choice, any more than homosexuality is a choice.
Hobby is basically the only way to go. Except in the hobby I had so far, everyone was 20 years older than me. And most of hobbies aren't a matter of choice either, hobbies are a strong urge like a love affair that may last a month, years or even a whole life. Or multiple at once. Yes, a relationship and family can become a hobby (obsessive interest, they call it) too. In fact I'm counting on that.
The problem is, how to get safely and quickly from common politeness to the stage of immersive intimacy. All the social universe in between, that seems as inviting as Saharan desert to me.

You might want to know that I currently watch the Dexter serial. I don't kill people, but Dexter has similar problems with social cluelessness. In fact I believe that's the wave of interest of today, in people with non-standard neurology. Spice it up with murders, sex and high-tech stuff so even normal people can watch it, but that's the point.


(21-05-2013 02:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  I can't help but wonder what country you live in and what age you are.
What, Amy? It's not polite to ask a woman's age Tongue

As for me, first please tell me any guesses you might have. One of my fascinations is what do people think about me. It is my blind spot, and it tells me much needed info about me and about people's thinking. I'd love to read about myself in newspapers solely for that reason, I can only understand people by their approach to something I know (in this case, someone).
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21-05-2013, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 05:04 PM by amyb.)
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
Quote:I have a form of autism. It's not a choice, any more than homosexuality is a choice.
Hobby is basically the only way to go. Except in the hobby I had so far, everyone was 20 years older than me. And most of hobbies aren't a matter of choice either, hobbies are a strong urge like a love affair that may last a month, years or even a whole life. Or multiple at once. Yes, a relationship and family can become a hobby (obsessive interest, they call it) too. In fact I'm counting on that.
The problem is, how to get safely and quickly from common politeness to the stage of immersive intimacy. All the social universe in between, that seems as inviting as Saharan desert to me.

You might want to know that I currently watch the Dexter serial. I don't kill people, but Dexter has similar problems with social cluelessness. In fact I believe that's the wave of interest of today, in people with non-standard neurology. Spice it up with murders, sex and high-tech stuff so even normal people can watch it, but that's the point.
I know. I was diagnosed with asperger's in the 90s (though I think my SPD is more prominent, and I associate myself with that more, and even write a blog about it). One of my best friends has Asperger's (more obviously than I do), and he's a well integrated member of society (moreso than I am). As I see it, you are thinking of it as a disability, and that way of thinking about it is causing it to be more of a disability because you seem so preoccupied with it. You also seem to assume that no one can possibly have the capacity to be understanding about it. Sure, it causes misunderstandings, but that doesn't mean you can't learn some social cues by memorization and imitation, so that you can get close enough to people to eventually be able to explain your own personal quirks to them. I was institutionalized in the mid 90s, I met some schizophrenics, and even they were people first, and schizophrenics second. And these were crazy motherfuckers who heard voices and hallucinated all the time. Still, they didn't define themselves as their disease.

And I agree, not all hobbies appeal to all people. That's why you have to find ones that appeal to you, and then associate with the people who also find that hobby appealing.

I only watched the first episode of Dexter, not enough to comment on it.

Quote:What, Amy? It's not polite to ask a woman's ag
I think she was talking to you. I think my date of birth is on my profile, but I can't recall.

Quote:There is, but culture is usually visual and what is more visual than racial appearance?
Um, no. There are a lot of nonvisual aspects to culture. Politeness, table manners, religion, music, just to name a few. Also, physical appearance (skin color, eye shape) is not part of culture. All dark skinned people don't belong to the same culture, and members of any one culture can have a variety of skin colors. Skin color is a genetic thing; culture is learned.

"Culture, or civilization, taken in its broad, ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."
-Edward B. Tylor
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21-05-2013, 05:13 PM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(21-05-2013 03:45 PM)amyb Wrote:  As I see it, you are thinking of it as a disability, and that way of thinking about it is causing it to be more of a disability because you seem so preoccupied with it.
This is how I think. I find this world very uncomfortable. The world is unacceptable. It's full of shit that has to go. Tell me that 2 + 2 equals 4 and I'll start thinking of all the situations when it does not equal 4. Tell me that poverty, capitalism and economic scarcity is inevitable and I'll challenge the basis of economy. Tell me I have an inborn brain disorder and I'll go into all kinds of therapies and years of meditation to conquer my neurology back. I need the mind to rule over matter, the higher to rule over the lower, be it through self-control, computers or changing the social order.
Which makes me very, very vulnerable towards easy gratification, indulgence and procrastination. I'll do a lot to get a hold of what I want, but give it to me directly and I'll have a hard time saying no and doing something real.

(21-05-2013 03:45 PM)amyb Wrote:  You also seem to assume that no one can possibly have the capacity to be understanding about it. Sure, it causes misunderstandings, but that doesn't mean you can't learn some social cues by memorization and imitation, so that you can get close enough to people to eventually be able to explain your own personal quirks to them.
Let's face it. Firstly, I'm damaged goods. When it comes to dating market, everyone is damaged goods, but that's why they tend to underestimate and marginalize the unusually damaged goods.

Secondly, that makes it very difficult to even imagine what kind of reaction people might have to my kind of damaged goods. I barely understand it myself, barely can explain it. I'm still scared from realization how big a disability it is. Most of people like me don't suffer that much, because they aren't so damn critical, stubborn and ambitious. (5 planets in Capricorn, 6th house, anyone?) They don't probe so deep and don't study the differences in neurology, but I do. I habitually go through altered states of consciousness and observe my psychology and... I just can't understand how could anyone choose this voluntarily.

No, it's not that simple unworthiness complex. People first go through romance of a new toy before they unpack the goods and read the damn instruction manual, which better be short and similar to their own. My instruction manual is big, vastly different and it's almost the first thing a potential partner has to read. Romance is like an ice on a lake, it can only bear the heavy stuff after it's strong enough. People usually wait with the heavy stuff, the drug rush of love gives them time. I don't have the time, I run out of ideas very soon because I don't have people's instruction manual either.

(21-05-2013 03:45 PM)amyb Wrote:  And I agree, not all hobbies appeal to all people. That's why you have to find ones that appeal to you, and then associate with the people who also find that hobby appealing.
Well, as I said, people who find my hobby appealing are 20 years older.
Others are... complacent. My hobby might be economy, but I am not complacent with it. I am to make the economy obsolete. So with politics and all the other things that I understand. If I understand something, I find out its limitations and I am driven to overcome them. You can not know anything without knowing where it begins and ends. The history is full of smart people with correct ideas who applied them way out of their limitations. The only ones who have no limitations are we, humans. We can push any border, given enough resources. And we absolutely have to, if we want to keep tempo with our technology. Today we are realpolitik barbarians with lasers and nukes.

The people I knew were either well off enough (complacent, comfortable in their niche of old order) or crackpot hippie PCMCs (hated the status quo, but wanted to fight it with composting and crystals).
Damn, I'd be afraid of myself if I met myself at a political rally.

(21-05-2013 03:45 PM)amyb Wrote:  Um, no. There are a lot of nonvisual aspects to culture. Politeness, table manners, religion, music, just to name a few. Also, physical appearance (skin color, eye shape) is not part of culture. All dark skinned people don't belong to the same culture, and members of any one culture can have a variety of skin colors. Skin color is a genetic thing; culture is learned.
Well, in that case you have to include stealing and violence as a legitimate part of culture. We have many minorities here, some very numerous, but only Gypsies have a bad reputation. There's twice as many Ukrainians and Vietnamese people, but they're seen as hard working and hard-studying at universities.
Is it theoretically possible that a culture would be fucked up and fucking up its own people and everyone around? If so, then racism would surely ensue, because people find it easier to point at a skin color than to address the "table manners have-nots".
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21-05-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(21-05-2013 03:23 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(21-05-2013 02:33 PM)amyb Wrote:  Race =/= culture. I think this confusion is the biggest reason for racism.
Yeah. There are genetical Gypsies for example, who live as citizens of mainstream society, who have a job, a nice home and family and their children go to school. But they are typically out of touch with their 50-member tribal half-nomadic families who used to visit without warning and eat all their food and borrow stuff because they have an entirely different concept of private property and good manners.

(21-05-2013 02:33 PM)amyb Wrote:  You can generalize on cultural practices, not races. There is a big difference.
There is, but culture is usually visual and what is more visual than racial appearance? Children as young as 3 years recognize a different skin color. Then they grow into adults who need someone on whom to blame the economic crises.

(21-05-2013 02:33 PM)amyb Wrote:  The more you say this, the more I think you don't want to integrate into humanity. You seem entirely more focused on your differences from people than your similarities. If all you do is focus on how you are unable to interact with people, maybe it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe you could get a hobby so you'd have something in common with people, therefore, something to talk about, rather than ruminating on your inability to read people. You don't have to read people's emotions if you already have something to talk about.
I have a form of autism. It's not a choice, any more than homosexuality is a choice.
Hobby is basically the only way to go. Except in the hobby I had so far, everyone was 20 years older than me. And most of hobbies aren't a matter of choice either, hobbies are a strong urge like a love affair that may last a month, years or even a whole life. Or multiple at once. Yes, a relationship and family can become a hobby (obsessive interest, they call it) too. In fact I'm counting on that.
The problem is, how to get safely and quickly from common politeness to the stage of immersive intimacy. All the social universe in between, that seems as inviting as Saharan desert to me.

You might want to know that I currently watch the Dexter serial. I don't kill people, but Dexter has similar problems with social cluelessness. In fact I believe that's the wave of interest of today, in people with non-standard neurology. Spice it up with murders, sex and high-tech stuff so even normal people can watch it, but that's the point.


(21-05-2013 02:37 PM)Dom Wrote:  I can't help but wonder what country you live in and what age you are.
What, Amy? It's not polite to ask a woman's age Tongue

As for me, first please tell me any guesses you might have. One of my fascinations is what do people think about me. It is my blind spot, and it tells me much needed info about me and about people's thinking. I'd love to read about myself in newspapers solely for that reason, I can only understand people by their approach to something I know (in this case, someone).

I have no idea, that is why I am asking. I do what Amy suggests - I ask instead of trying to fit things in a mold. Smile If I have to guess, I guess I can rule out 50+, and I am thinking you are on the young side. But if I had a good guess, I would not have asked. And you are from? Could be lots of places. Not the US, not the UK, not Australia and not Western Europe would be my guess. Elimination tends to be more helpful than assumptions.

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21-05-2013, 05:29 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 05:51 PM by amyb.)
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
Quote:My instruction manual is big, vastly different and it's almost the first thing a potential partner has to read.
You're also ignoring the possibility of potential partners with the same problems as you. You also seem to be defining yourself as a disease first, and a human being second. I doubt that most people find that attractive. You seem rather narcissistic also, which people also do not tend to find attractive. (I am not trying to be a dick, though being a dick comes naturally to me, but I mean reading your posts, it's all about you. You don't seem to be considering the other person in a theoretical relationship at all, except that they need to live up to a checklist of standards. I would argue that this probably isn't the best way to go about looking for potential partners)

Quote:Well, in that case you have to include stealing and violence as a legitimate part of culture. We have many minorities here, some very numerous, but only Gypsies have a bad reputation. There's twice as many Ukrainians and Vietnamese people, but they're seen as hard working and hard-studying at universities.
Is it theoretically possible that a culture would be fucked up and fucking up its own people and everyone around? If so, then racism would surely ensue, because people find it easier to point at a skin color than to address the "table manners have-nots".
It appears you are not very knowledgeable in the area of cultural anthropology. Well, we can't all be, I guess. And yes, it is easier to point at a skin color, but that doesn't mean cultural traits are anything but learned. I have no experience with gypsies, but it would appear that you do not share their cultural values. It has nothing to do with genetics.
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21-05-2013, 06:41 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 07:13 PM by Luminon.)
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(21-05-2013 05:22 PM)Dom Wrote:  I have no idea, that is why I am asking. I do what Amy suggests - I ask instead of trying to fit things in a mold. Smile If I have to guess, I guess I can rule out 50+, and I am thinking you are on the young side. But if I had a good guess, I would not have asked. And you are from? Could be lots of places. Not the US, not the UK, not Australia and not Western Europe would be my guess. Elimination tends to be more helpful than assumptions.
OK, so what I actually should ask is, what do you want to gather from that information. Please try to answer that as well, if you can.

I'm a guy from Czech Republic. Just turned 25 recently. I don't know what to think about that.

(21-05-2013 05:29 PM)amyb Wrote:  You're also ignoring the possibility of potential partners with the same problems as you.
Not likely, and if yes, not healthy for the offspring. (thinking ahead here Rolleyes ) But knowing someone like me, that might be good!

(21-05-2013 05:29 PM)amyb Wrote:  You also seem to be defining yourself as a disease first, and a human being second. I doubt that most people find that attractive.
Well, here I do. I don't know what to do in practice.
And it's true I don't really feel like a human being. I feel like something between an animal, machine and a god. It's hard to explain, but Seth Andrews is a proper human, not me.

(21-05-2013 05:29 PM)amyb Wrote:  You seem rather narcissistic also, which people also do not tend to find attractive. (I am not trying to be a dick, though being a dick comes naturally to me, but I mean reading your posts, it's all about you. You don't seem to be considering the other person in a theoretical relationship at all, except that they need to live up to a checklist of standards. I would argue that this probably isn't the best way to go about looking for potential partners)
You are correct and writting the "I" letter seems to me also kind of stupid and excessive, it is better to try sometimes a passive voice. But I would argue that is a neurologic thing. This is not narcissism, but a lifetime of isolation at the deepest possible level, a lifetime of isolated growth, mostly without even noticing.

I came see the self as my prison. It has to be a big prison so you go along with it unnoticed for years, but sooner or later you bump up against the walls. I seek to escape the self, in many elaborate ways.
One of ways is doing something altruistic. I really like to help people in practical ways, it feels so good. People in need are so clear - it's obvious what am I supposed to do (they tell me) and when I do it, it's the right thing and they are grateful. What a rare situation.

This is not a self-aggrandizement or big ego. My senses lie to me that nothing and nobody feels real except of me (well, sometimes not even me actually) and objective/natural systems. So I can talk about the only two things I know, myself and systems. I am my own universe, my own nation. It has actually an advantage, I don't take many things personally, I don't get corrupted, competitive or manipulated or swayed by public opinion. And I shouldn't see someone else's achievements as a personal threat. I might be actually very interested in other people, I switched from technical subjects to humanities.


(21-05-2013 05:29 PM)amyb Wrote:  It appears you are not very knowledgeable in the area of cultural anthropology. Well, we can't all be, I guess. And yes, it is easier to point at a skin color, but that doesn't mean cultural traits are anything but learned. I have no experience with gypsies, but it would appear that you do not share their cultural values. It has nothing to do with genetics.
Well yes, I must agree that are cultural traits learned. No argument here. Genetics and epigenetics is a fascinating and strong influence, but it would rather apply on humanity as a whole.
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