The Lucid Spiritual Plane
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09-05-2013, 04:07 PM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(09-05-2013 11:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  And then, after all I wrote to you about doing your chart for free, you don't even respond.

I don't wish to divulge all that personal information at this time.

(09-05-2013 11:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  You don't even click on "like" for the Hannibal Lecter meme.

Fixed.

Do only humans experience this Spiritual Plane or does anything else? What wouldnt experience this?

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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09-05-2013, 11:03 PM
 
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(09-05-2013 04:07 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 11:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  And then, after all I wrote to you about doing your chart for free, you don't even respond.

I don't wish to divulge all that personal information at this time.

(09-05-2013 11:10 AM)Egor Wrote:  You don't even click on "like" for the Hannibal Lecter meme.

Fixed.

Do only humans experience this Spiritual Plane or does anything else? What wouldnt experience this?

Well, if you're asking me to speculate, which is all I can do about this, I think just as physical life evolves into a perfect equalibrium with its environment, spiritual life does as well. I personally think we all started out as prions then reincarnated into viruses, then bacteria, then protozoa, then plants, then simpler animals, then herbavours, then carnivours, then omnivours, and then humans (and I won't comment on which humans are the most evolved). When we stop reincarnating as humans, then we develop our lucid spiritual planes, when we have reached the fruition of those we go on to be with the Divine Source, I believe as spirit guides, and then eventually there is no distinction between us and the Divine Source.

Our souls are probably as old as the universe, itself.

That's what I think. So...go ahead...[Image: 0221c%20(1).gif]
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13-05-2013, 11:45 AM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
Lucidity eludes you in all planes. Tongue

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13-05-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(09-05-2013 11:03 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(09-05-2013 04:07 PM)bemore Wrote:  I don't wish to divulge all that personal information at this time.


Fixed.

Do only humans experience this Spiritual Plane or does anything else? What wouldnt experience this?

Well, if you're asking me to speculate, which is all I can do about this, I think just as physical life evolves into a perfect equalibrium with its environment, spiritual life does as well. I personally think we all started out as prions then reincarnated into viruses, then bacteria, then protozoa, then plants, then simpler animals, then herbavours, then carnivours, then omnivours, and then humans (and I won't comment on which humans are the most evolved). When we stop reincarnating as humans, then we develop our lucid spiritual planes, when we have reached the fruition of those we go on to be with the Divine Source, I believe as spirit guides, and then eventually there is no distinction between us and the Divine Source.

Our souls are probably as old as the universe, itself.

That's what I think. So...go ahead...[Image: 0221c%20(1).gif]

Have you ever considered that it may be the other way around Ed. That the lowest part of the chain is human beings and to evolve spiritually is to go into animals? Look at us a species... fucking up this planet and killing everything on it? Looks like we are in a loosing battle.

Also what are your views on dreams within dreams Ed? I'm not talking no inception stuff but for the last three nights I have woken up in my dreams to then obv wake up into "reality".

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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13-05-2013, 04:01 PM
 
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(13-05-2013 01:45 PM)bemore Wrote:  Have you ever considered that it may be the other way around Ed. That the lowest part of the chain is human beings and to evolve spiritually is to go into animals? Look at us a species... fucking up this planet and killing everything on it? Looks like we are in a loosing battle.

Interesting idea. In my opinion, however, animals don't possess the cognitive abilities to learn the greater lessons needed to rule a universe (i.e., the lucid spiritual plane).

Quote:Also what are your views on dreams within dreams Ed? I'm not talking no inception stuff but for the last three nights I have woken up in my dreams to then obv wake up into "reality".

You are describing "false awakenings." They are your mind's attempt to become lucid within the dream, but more importantly, I believe, they are telling you that you can't avoid the message of the dream. You should go through my website and send me the dream. I would be honored to interpret it, and you don't have to give personal info for a dream interpretation. It helps, but it's not necessary. You'll see. And, of course, the first dream is on the house.

http://veridican.org/dreams.html
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16-05-2013, 01:36 AM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(09-05-2013 10:51 AM)Egor Wrote:  I know nothing about Theosophy or Alice Bailey. I figured out the concept of the lucid spiritual plane through lucid dream analysis, my own observations of consciousness, the idea of reincarnation, the elements of NDE's, and logical conclusions about the motives of the Divine Source.

If my idea happens to coincide with someone else's then I think that's a good thing.
Well, then. Good job, actually! Yes, it is a good thing but most people who actually did that during history fell prey to the illusory emotional nature of LSP. The LSP may pose as the highest and holiest of states of existence, but it only reflects our cultural notions about heaven and spiritual superiority. All in all, it reflects the average state of mankind today, which is very messy.
Nothing to judge there though, this is where virtually all people started with interest in spirituality, a beginner area. Some stay there for 20 years, some for all their life and can not imagine nor appreciate anything higher.
Many consider it a great achievement to shift consciousness upwards, into the intellectual/intuitive level. This is where objectivity may be found. The LSP is an area of emotional subjectivity and thus dissent and conflict.

(09-05-2013 10:51 AM)Egor Wrote:  One can observe paramecia swimming around with will and purpose and read the scientific literature on how they can be trained. They are only one-celled animals with no neurology at all. Their apparent consciousness must be external not emergent. One can look at instinctual knowledge in animals, that is not possible from our understanding of neurology.
Is that for real? If so, then it's awesome. I've read about that, the paramecia were able to learn about light and shadow halves of capsule and go where they remembered they would not get electrically shocked. They had two problems:
- their memories lasted only a for a minute or so,
- they were unable to distinguish between less dark and more dark.
So there seems to be a consciousness, a memory of some kind, but some very sharply limited one, hinting perhaps at a mechanism of some kind, not a consciousness.

I wonder what it takes to shift the paradigm, for the science to realize that our current scientific paradigm is not objective. That it is a very subjective interpretation of reality, based on studying a small fraction of an anomalous (solid, visible) part of the universe. I have come to a conclusion that the universe in its wholeness is better described in terms of plasma obeying not classical mechanics of solid matter interaction, but rather field mechanics at a distance.
I wonder what it takes for scientists to accept that we live in a weird universe and the weird is more real and plentiful than our normal, and it was here all along, acting upon our dreams, ignorance and unconsciousness. So in order to know the strange universe, we can not ignore the major religious and spiritual traditions as scientists did so far, we need to look at them with a new knowledge and look for influences that the unseen universe had put into our consciousness during the millenia.

(09-05-2013 10:51 AM)Egor Wrote:  One can consider the evidence of psi: precognition, remote viewing, past life evidence in children, esp. This all necessitates that consciousness is external, not emergent from the brain.
Indeed. I have posted in the past the research of Ian Stevenson, who did an extensive international research of past life experiences in children. However, he himself admitted that the evidence is not conclusive. The science can not change a paradigm because of something that it does not have under control, like the claims of children. Social sciences typically have much less control over their subjects and do not stand up to the standards of evidence in natural sciences.

(09-05-2013 10:51 AM)Egor Wrote:  One can then considers what happens when our consciousness is altered in sleep--we dream. When we dream, our mind (which must be external) creates a universe for itself. When we wake up, we see we exist in a universe we didn't make--so some other mind must have created it.

Apparently, creating a universe is what a mind does.

That's all I got. [Image: 23.gif]
Well, I've been in a plenty of fictional universes - in books and computers. They were created by a mind, or procedurally generated, but that didn't make them actual universes.
Reality is where energy is. There is nothing but energy in various forms in the whole universe, perhaps plus the laws governing it. Data or information do not contain energy and may therefore be completely fictional. If energy is poured into them, they may be more "real" for that, but still essentially a deception, a semblance of reality.
In the end, the same could be said about the visible universe itself, which is comparatively less energetic than the unseen universe.

Mind creates illusions, yet illusions are often necessary to teach a lesson and learn. Seeing through them is the greatest lesson of all.
What is the thing that goes through all the illusion and learns from it? It is consciousness, but what is consciousness? What does it take for consciousness to be real and persisting through the lessons of temporary form? It would have to be essentially an energy of some kind, at some level. Consciousness gets tangled into illusory world lessons and then unravels them again. We can just wonder how much this principle works fractally, in worlds within worlds within worlds.

(Calm down Chas, that's not science, that's philosophy right now!)

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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16-05-2013, 06:22 AM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(16-05-2013 01:36 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Many consider it a great achievement to shift consciousness upwards, into the intellectual/intuitive level. This is where objectivity may be found. The LSP is an area of emotional subjectivity and thus dissent and conflict.

I didn't read all your post, but I just wanted to point that about intellect > emotion, is considered by many gender studies authors to be a sexist notion. Remember that men are (or were, depending on where you are) considered intellectual and women emotional, and thus, intellect is considered superior to emotion, like a thing for animals and not humans (male humans)

I'm not accusing you of being a chauvinistic pig, just that we're all imbued with this notions because we still live in a sexist society and all that ideas ooze into our minds whether we like it or not at some point. Confused

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16-05-2013, 08:37 AM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
I like flying in planes, but I'm not so sure about whether this one will fly either.
I s'pose I should ask Carlo what he thinks about it's air-worthiness.
I suspect it's another crash and burn. Weeping

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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19-05-2013, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2013 12:15 PM by Luminon.)
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(16-05-2013 06:22 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I didn't read all your post, but I just wanted to point that about intellect > emotion, is considered by many gender studies authors to be a sexist notion. Remember that men are (or were, depending on where you are) considered intellectual and women emotional, and thus, intellect is considered superior to emotion, like a thing for animals and not humans (male humans)

I'm not accusing you of being a chauvinistic pig, just that we're all imbued with this notions because we still live in a sexist society and all that ideas ooze into our minds whether we like it or not at some point. Confused
Thanks for the info. I don't think either sexism or political correctness has anything to say. This is the ancient nature vs. nurture debate. My preliminary guess is, capitalism keeps women down by scarcity and the need for division of labor on competitive men and supportive housekeepers. If women want to succeed in capitalism, they must be more men than actual men.

As for emotionality and intellect in actual women... I am socially blind and not in touch with society, much less women, so don't take me seriously. I think if I was a sexistic pig, it would be actually an improvement of my social life. From what I've seen, many guys enjoy using their brains, but I regret to say, save for one or two exceptions I've never had an interesting discussion with a girl of my age. There is no doubt I need a heavy counseling and therapy in that department.

I think esotericism is not sexistic, gender is recognized in spiritual world, but in technical sense as polarity of energy or the duality of matter and energy (spirit). There is no New Agey goddess worship either, it's all very technical and there are some very positive and necessary meanings of emotionality. If I saw the teaching is sexistic, simplistic or neglecting the emotional realm, I'd be so done with it long ago. Emotional body is potentially a direct receiver to Buddhi, if that pleases you Wink The emotional realm is equated to water, with its storms, waves, fogs and distortion. But a calmed water eventually manages to reflect the soul/superconsciousness on the emotional and social level and that is a great achievement. Hence there is the symbol of Christ's baptism in river as a symbolic hint at someone who mastered his emotionality....

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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19-05-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: The Lucid Spiritual Plane
(16-05-2013 06:22 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 01:36 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Many consider it a great achievement to shift consciousness upwards, into the intellectual/intuitive level. This is where objectivity may be found. The LSP is an area of emotional subjectivity and thus dissent and conflict.

I didn't read all your post, but I just wanted to point that about intellect > emotion, is considered by many gender studies authors to be a sexist notion. Remember that men are (or were, depending on where you are) considered intellectual and women emotional, and thus, intellect is considered superior to emotion, like a thing for animals and not humans (male humans)

I'm not accusing you of being a chauvinistic pig, just that we're all imbued with this notions because we still live in a sexist society and all that ideas ooze into our minds whether we like it or not at some point. Confused
I didn't read his post either, but in my opinion, you are in error about that because you are assuming (kind of) that women are innately emotional, rather than socially conditioned to be more open about their emotions. I know you said "considered," but according to the gender studies stuff that I have read, the problem is more that people confuse socially determined gender roles with the idea that men/women are "naturally" more one thing or another.

Again, I haven't read Luminon's post (yet), but if all he said was he thinks "intellect>emotion," I'd agree with him. That doesn't mean I think he's right when you're looking at the bigger picture though, I think emotions have played a large role in the species. Even though I'm a sociopath, and I can still recognize that other people have social bonds and that's what keeps the species going, and also is important since humans are social creatures.

Quote:If women want to succeed in capitalism, they must be more men than actual men.
Here is a problematic part of what Luminon said, I think. He is assuming that successful women are "men." The only way there can be a problem with women assuming traditionally male jobs and roles in society is if you think that women are basically a different species; inherently different. Just because you might have trouble talking to females of the species doesn't mean you're right in assuming the problem is women, rather than with yourself.

Also, I have no idea what this thread is about.
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