The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
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04-10-2016, 04:49 PM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
Frankly the concept of an afterlife is depressing as all hell to those who think this state of thing is desirable.

Why the heck would you care about anything ?

If life is not a temporary state and you have all of eternity to accomplish anything why care care about anything. Because you could always do it tomorrow or the next day .The contrary is often a point used against us all to often iv'e been challenged with."why do counter apologetics when you could enjoy life "this sounds like a bullshit way of avoiding the subject of theism and makes the erroneous notion that standing up to fundie bullshit is not important and worthwhile.

Are you so scared of death that any state other then non existence is desired ?

Having been in NDE state twice myself i don't find the prospect that awful .Now i'm so arrogant as to think that a singular experience counts for shit it doesn't. But i found death near death peaceful so why the worry about it?

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04-10-2016, 07:18 PM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
(04-10-2016 04:30 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If my house is on fire, I have a real & tangible hope that firemen will arrive to help put out the fire when I call them for help.

As a religious person, when your house is on fire and you call only upon your god for help, how hopeless does that make you feel ?

This actually touches on something that I also brought up in our discussion. He gave an example of a girl stolen from her family and trapped in sexual slavery and how being able to pray to God would bring her hope. This is what I said in return:

Glossaphile Wrote:More important than giving the sex slave hope is actually getting her out of that situation, and in that regard, prayer is pointless. I don't say that just because I'm quite sure she'd just be talking to thin air, either. Even if we assume Christian theology is true, it's still pointless.

Feel free to correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but in my experience, even fairly liberal Christians such as yourself believe in a divine plan. Under that assumption, the poor, victimized young woman praying to God is like a movie character praying to the screenwriter or director. If God's plan requires her continued suffering, what hope does she have then? The best she can do is hope that God's plan does not involve her remaining enslaved, but that's a 50/50 proposition, and so her odds are no better than they would be if she instead just hoped for rescue or escape in any form, divinely orchestrated or not.

[...]

More broadly, your contention that atheism cannot give us hope for a better society in a better future is unwarranted. For one thing, we are more likely to do a better job of ensuring maximal justice if we realize that the responsibility lies squarely on our collective shoulders instead of relying on a deity that may or may not even be there. Given the work of people like Norman Borlaug, it is not at all unreasonable for a starving child in Africa to place his/her hope in biology and agricultural science to find new ways of improving crop yields, and it is certainly not illogical for the cancer patient to place his/her hope in genetics and medical science. In either case, no god is required to justify and motivate a hopeful outlook.

I barely resisted the urge to state the obvious, "Here's an idea: how 'bout if God never allows her to be victimized in the first place!" I almost did, but I felt like there were enough worms on the table already, so there was no need to open another can of them.

The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths. – Carl Sagan
Sōla vēritās sancta in philosophiā nātūrālī est absentia vēritātum sanctārum.
Ἡ μόνη ἱερᾱ̀ ἀληθείᾱ ἐν φυσικῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ ἐστίν ἡ ἱερῶν ἀληθειῶν σπάνις.
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04-10-2016, 07:26 PM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
One does not get to chose one's worldview based on it's usefulness or hopefulness, or any other utilitarian outcome. Reality is what it is. Making shit up, in the long-run, is dangerous and useless.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-10-2016, 07:38 PM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
(04-10-2016 07:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  One does not get to chose one's worldview based on it's usefulness or hopefulness, or any other utilitarian outcome. Reality is what it is. Making shit up, in the long-run, is dangerous and useless.

I touched on this point as well.

Glossophile Wrote:Finally, we're both still squarely in appeal-to-consequences territory. Even if theism did somehow have a monopoly on hope, that would not lend any credence to the actual truth of theistic claims, and I think we can both agree that we have a vested interest in ensuring that our beliefs are true. It would be reassuring if Superman existed. That doesn't mean that he does.

The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths. – Carl Sagan
Sōla vēritās sancta in philosophiā nātūrālī est absentia vēritātum sanctārum.
Ἡ μόνη ἱερᾱ̀ ἀληθείᾱ ἐν φυσικῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ ἐστίν ἡ ἱερῶν ἀληθειῶν σπάνις.
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04-10-2016, 07:56 PM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
Think about it:

According to the bible:

Satan/Lucifer was an angel, in heaven.
Satan pissed off god and got chucked out of heaven.
Also, all the angels who followed him got booted too.

So this tells us it is possible to get thrown out of heaven.
This tells us that you can't escape an eternal hell, but you can lose eternal paradise.

Given the fact that god himself tells us that he is angry, jealous and vengeful, it seems fairly likely that at some point in an eternity, you're going to piss him off.

Since eternity is, well, infinite, that makes it a certainty doesn't it?

So you're guaranteed to end up in hell no matter what you do.

Sounds pretty hopeful to me. Thumbsup

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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05-10-2016, 01:13 AM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
I don’t understand what is ’hopeless’ in atheism. I can understand the notion of heaven being comforting as death is scary and at least makes me sad at times but that is all. Heaven as described in the bible does not sound good. Heaven makes sense to the people 2000+ years ago but not anymore. Does heaven have WiFi, games, TV or any other modern inventions? If not, are there at least books or other forms of entertainment? Supposedly there’s plenty of food but am I ever hungry or do I feel satisfied after a meal? Do I poop? Do I get my own house and bed? Do I sleep and feel rested afterwards? And I guess most importantly, who am I with in heaven?

When the bible was created, in a world where you do not understand the forces of nature and you cannot be sure of your livelihood in the future, the idea of god and heaven might sound good and give you hope. I live in a world full of comforts and entertainment. My Saturday is perfect if I can have coffee in the morning, play video games or watch films or just talk with my boyfriend all day long while getting drunk. Sitting by a tree and worshipping someone, for ever and ever and ever, sounds mind-numbingly boring. It does not give me hope.

I am grateful for being born. I consider myself incredibly lucky to have been born during this era. I consider myself even luckier to have an amazing family and friends. When I go out on a crisp summer’s morning and fill my lungs with the gorgeous smells and listen to birds sing, I am happy and feel at peace. Yes, it will end one day, so I must enjoy it while it lasts. Life is precious.
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05-10-2016, 01:24 AM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
Laughat
(04-10-2016 03:19 PM)Glossophile Wrote:  I recently came across this video in which an apparently moderate Christian attempts to apologize to atheists on behalf of his more fundamentalist cohorts and disavow extremism in order to defend the faith and the good that it does. I took the bait and engaged in a discussion with him in the comments (I'm "TranslatorCarminum," if anyone's interested in my remarks and his responses). In his latest remark as of the posting of this thread, he seems to have invoked a common apologist trope, namely the notion that atheism is an inherently hopeless worldview. I did my best to show that this is not necessarily true and encouraged him to find out more about what gives atheists hope, but I am curious as to how other non-believers would respond to this question. What gives you hope in a presumably godless cosmos, and more importantly, how can we combat the myth of atheist hopelessness?



Laughat
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05-10-2016, 01:36 AM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
They have the futile hope that they will escape death somehow, that something will live on after. They have some kind of ridiculous notion that an invisible person cares about them and will help them when they need it, if they grovel sufficiently.

I have no such delusions. I can't see how such a delusion is helpful anyway. So what if there's zero hope that you'll continue after death? That's what reality is. You can't change reality by believing hard enough.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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05-10-2016, 01:54 AM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
Always find this difficult because there is nothing in my mindset that can even contemplate the idea of the promise of an afterlife. No more than that I can fly under my own steam, just by flapping my arms.

Does this make me hopeless, nope, I seem to be a natural optimist - despite many decades of disappointments and illness. Tomorrow is always another day - may bring shit, may bring gold, that's the way life is. Even the shit can be interesting at times . . . Getting bitten by a Rottweiller led me to learn a lot about the legal system that has proved useful since! Became a hobby for a couple of years.

Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.
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05-10-2016, 02:34 AM
RE: The Mythical Hopelessness of Atheism
Atheism is not a "world-view". It is simply a disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of god or gods. Atheists can have any "world-view" they wish, any belief system they wish, any ideas, any culture.

Does the rejection of other gods by christians mean that their lives are hopeless?

So why does the rejection of just another god - their god - make a difference?

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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