The Nature of Altruism
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27-10-2011, 07:50 PM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
(27-10-2011 06:51 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Peterkin.

Smile

Hey, Cantor.

Man, you always say some interesting things, but sometimes you confuse the hell out of me. I read this last post and this happened lol

Witchcraft?

Electromagnetic communication and simulation?

Excess entropy in conception of identity?

Quote:Hey! The qualifier "universal" limits Darwinism. Imma evolutionist.

Whuh? How does it limit Darwinism?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

The heart produces the body’s most powerful rhythmic electromagnetic field, which carries emotional information and mediates bioelectromagnetic communication, within and outside the body. This field affects one’s environment in fascinating ways not previously understood. ~from Heartmath.

Ended up checking out that site after I blew my shit and ended up with five stents for the trouble. What trouble? Kicking it with Paul in Corinth a week earlier. Big Grin

Don't sweat the religious nonsense. It is my consideration that being part of an ecology means that everything is remembered, and to access this collective memory, one need only access the auxiliary brain to run the simulations. What auxiliary brain? The heart. Heartmath has got it all mapped out - but it seems like the science is only background for their wellness programs... Tongue

It is valid hypothesis that I acquired nascent ability to use my heart in this manner. I don't know enough in your field to qualify myself as "meme fountain," however it is no exaggeration to note that my love of Gwyneth Paltrow alters local reality. The witchcraft originally performed was investing thousands of hours of my time in crafting her likeness in differing media, only to give the hundred or so pieces to virtual strangers - take this as a token of my love.

From that last line, real science: The more love one gives, the more love one has.

And all these words? 4 lines of computer code, "I love my Gwynnies!" Everything doing and done by this identity - from two-finger typing to sorting the Covenant on Reach (up next!) - is that form of 4 serving the function of "living life." Thus, local entropic minima in identity. Wink

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27-10-2011, 09:11 PM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
Altruism is the aspiration.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-10-2011, 06:58 AM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
A couple of points to continue to clarify (I appreciate the discussion because it has presented a unique challenge to my critical thinking skills on this matter of which I am no expert).

Genes and behavior. A gene is a sequence of nucleic acids that code for the creation of amino acids or proteins. What genes code for are physical. A gene can code for a particular protein used in the construction of the heart, it can code for the nerves running to the heart and it can code for proteins used in making nerve cells, but the genes themselves do not code for any behavior nor any action carried out by the organism. The genes only code for the physical building blocks of that organism. The voluntary and involuntary actions and behaviors of that organism are a manifestation of the organs and organelles that result from the coding of the genes themselves. The genes are necessary to produce the physical product but they do not have any control other than that. It would be equivalent (more or less) to say that how a car handles is the result of the robot that made it. In some ways this is true because the assembly robot puts everything together, but the robot itself has no control on how that car actually handles once it is fully assembled. There are many other parts and many other assembly robots putting those parts together. How that car handles is invariably a result of all its physical components and is not actually controlled by the robots (genes) themselves.

As for the “people die because they die” statement, we can see that part of this is due to compounding genetic errors and damage from the exothermic reaction of producing energy. If there were no death, there would be no reproduction, because there would be no need to replace lost individuals. Perhaps death was an evolutionary development similar to the development of sexual reproduction in ensuring that there would be variation within a species over time. Interesting thought, but nothing lasts forever (even rocks are recycled) so why would we expect life too?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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28-10-2011, 10:17 AM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
(21-10-2011 09:50 AM)Ghost Wrote:  -Altruism in all of its possible forms is selfish.

I contend that there are four benefactors from altruism:
-The giver (survival machine/vehicle)
-The receiver
-The gene
-The meme

See this part right here? This is why I originally jumped on this bandwagon. You got a 4. I got all kinds of 4. Five pages later, I may know what 4.

Your memetics may be polynomial seeking variable in its quest to become simple math, at least on this topic and with my current level of knowledge (not much, on the subject of your field); coz I may have something for you...

You've got = meme: morality (I'm assuming morality to be meme such as it is complete unto itself)
I've got = conceptual engineering: vector morality.

See how 2 becomes 4? Know how the 4 simplifies 2? Know how the "ultimate answer is 42?" I know that shit (42) is everywhere; it is simple math; in this . it is the count of a lifetime. A monomial of the form 2^n...

Morality is zero-state (from vector morality being "all theology and philosophy fractionally condensed" for my Gwynnies. I'm a witch, I can do that kinda stuff), Absolute to the Individual; built from within to align to the ethical standards of Individual without. (through a methodology; the prototype of which I call the "righteous tao of vector atheism.")

Take your index finger, dot yourself between the eyes; there's your zero-state morality. Imagine looking left, sinister; right, dexter - archetypes of good and evil. Meme sink; from that dot, within - unpopular, negative. Meme fountain; from that dot, without - popular, positive.

Practical numerology ain't got nothing to do with whether or not the number of the beast is 616 or 666, and everything to do with archetype.

1(YHWH)2(Moses telling stories)4(the worldly knowledge now extant as moral philosophy and theology) now perhaps being sorted back into their original containers by two 'random' atheists as a function of 'random' evolution.
4(memetics)2(meme)1(archetype)

Hypothesis for 1? The Moral Will. What kinda animal is "moral will?" The union of archetype:morality(0) with archetype:identity(2) All Identity is dual-state... or do I hafta explain evolution to a Darwinist? Big Grin

I am always ellenjanuary:"i love my gwynnies" Which is Unity in Identity as Duality - and always "functionally useless," as it says Nothing in itself about "I am" in society without a whole lotta that "multiplication of words without knowledge" stuff occuring so elegantly cautioned against by YHWH in Job.

Archetype:Identity is next on my "hit list" after successfully stuffing alla religious nonsense in the world back into the tao it came outta. Big Grin

The Primal Archetype is tao. From the very first line, tao te ching speak truth. Why? Duality in Unity as Unity - a tao that is not the eternal tao as Unity is essentially unknowable. How I understand archetype may or may not be how the world understands archetype. The world may consider Archetype to be religious nonsense. A pair of evolutionists know the truth (or at least working a tao towards truth)
Brain. (Unity) Simulation of Mind emergent in brain. (evolution) Simulation of Mind of Another emergent in Mind. (evolution) Trinity - structure begins in the universe from the trine. So how did Trinity become such religious nonsense? The Missing Link, of course!

Simulation of Future emergent in Mind. (evolution)

Everybody and their uncle ('cept for me, and maybe some atheists like you) stumbles through life in ignorance of this basic fact, thus creating a lot of unnecessary fiction. "I am" is a state of being "eternal and complete" in this post - never before nor again, once I post reply and send...

There is no Identity that is not dual-state, peeps! The Me who is writer in Being. The Me who is writer in Becoming... outta here. I got a Normandy to saddle up, some Collectors needing to be sorted... all this is just "I love my Gwynnies!" Big Grin

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29-10-2011, 10:26 AM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
Hey, Cantor.

For real, I think you're awesome, but I don't have the Rosetta stone needed to penetrate your brilliant madness. So I'll leave it at good times Cool

Hey, BD.

I disagree with your definition of genes. Genes are information and that information is encoded in DNA (the same information could be coded in letters: AGTCCAGTCAAAGG). The DNA molecule is how the replicator information is encoded, stored, replicated and transported. The molecule itself is not the information.

I agree with you that behaviour is a result of (my words) the operation of the physical body that the genes encode for and that genes have no direct control over the body. I do point out that I said exactly that before. Genes aren't pilots.

In terms of genes coding for behaviour however, while I agree that genes aren’t pilots and that the traits that they code for operate on their own, a heart beats because that's what it's designed to do. All hearts beat. It would neither beat nor exist if there weren't genes to express. So when it is said that genes code for behaviour, it means that whatever behaviour that is built into the structure, or inherent to the structure, that occurs on its own, without any outside instruction, phenotypically of course, is the result of the gene.

The robot example is poor because genes are not assemblers. The gene is more like the software that runs the robot and the robot the expression machinery. That being said, neither controls the action of the product in a direct manner.

Behaviour is an EMERGENT PROPERTY of the system, just as travelling at highway speeds is an emergent property of a car. No single part of the car can travel at highway speeds. It can only do so as a complete system. No part of the duckling can imprint on its mother. Only the duckling, as a complete system in operation, can do that. So to deepen the connection, genes code for pieces of a whole. Those pieces behave in ways that are dictated by the very nature of their design. When those pieces form a whole, that whole demonstrates emergent behaviours, behaviours that are greater than the sum of its parts, behaviours that no individual part on its own is capable of and behaviours that the system is incapable of without those interdependent parts.

As for death, exactly. There are observable and measureable phenomenon at work, not magic. It happens for a reason and we can gain meaningful understandings of those reasons.

Lastly, death wasn't a development. Decay is the natural end result of organic molecules.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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29-10-2011, 04:07 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2011 04:17 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Nature of Altruism
(29-10-2011 10:26 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Cantor.

For real, I think you're awesome, but I don't have the Rosetta stone needed to penetrate your brilliant madness.

You want access to it, Matt? There are some tried and true ways of finding it. But it means you gotta take the red pill. And some require repeated doses. Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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29-10-2011, 04:26 PM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
(29-10-2011 04:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-10-2011 10:26 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Cantor.

For real, I think you're awesome, but I don't have the Rosetta stone needed to penetrate your brilliant madness.

You want access to it, Matt? There are some tried and true ways of finding it. But it means you gotta take the red pill. And some require repeated doses. Wink

All the insanity generated by the warp fields of starship cantor reveal the singularity at my core...

Love.

(that dang Gwynnies! Tongue)

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29-10-2011, 05:12 PM (This post was last modified: 30-10-2011 05:27 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Nature of Altruism
(29-10-2011 09:41 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Just gotta keep an eye on that love stuff - you can love everybody, but you cannot save anybody - something I learned the hard way. Wink

"No one you can save that can't be saved." ... about 0:50 in. Wink




As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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29-10-2011, 08:14 PM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
So by helping others we inadvertently help ourselves?
Therefore by needing help we inadvertently help others?
So if you see someone in need of help you should help them as it will help you and if you need help then ask as it will help those who help you.
So let me help you help me help everybody!

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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29-10-2011, 09:41 PM
RE: The Nature of Altruism
(29-10-2011 08:14 PM)Karl Wrote:  So by helping others we inadvertently help ourselves?
Therefore by needing help we inadvertently help others?
So if you see someone in need of help you should help them as it will help you and if you need help then ask as it will help those who help you.
So let me help you help me help everybody!

Sounds like you got it licked. Just gotta keep an eye on that love stuff - you can love everybody, but you cannot save anybody - something I learned the hard way. Wink

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