The Nature of Money
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26-03-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: The Nature of Money
Sorry for the double post... hit the wrong button when I went to edit.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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26-03-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: The Nature of Money
So people have spoken about money as a means of exchange for real, tangible items. Sure you go to work, you do something productive and for this you are given tokens that reflect your input into the world. With these tokens you purchase food, drink, technology and it helps maintain order to a degree.

What about the "intangible" things where money is involved. Where people gamble on the stock exchange... where computers buy and sell to themselves with high frequency trading algorithims? The artifical suppresing of interest rates in the Libor scandal?

How does that work in todays society? What actual good does this do except add more zeros to peoples bank balances?

The growing gap between the rich and the poor? Is that an indicator that our current monetary system is fair in our "democratic" countries where everybody is deemed to be "equal" and awarded for participating in the system instead of leeching off it?

Emphasis today is put on people leeching on the system, the people at the bottom of the chain are losing out on essential services that are needed and people use everyday because they have to reduce the deficit. People are losing their jobs and income and certain banks show no profits yet the people at the top are awarded bonuses equating to billions of tokens?

Is that not also "leeching" off the system but on a massive scale?

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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26-03-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 10:36 AM)bemore Wrote:  Is that not also "leeching" off the system but on a massive scale?
It is indeed leeching off the system. But it isn't money that facilitates that behavior. No sane individual would ever take the sorts of risks that these people take if it were actually their own money on the line. However, because of the state created fiction called a corporation, these bankers don't suffer a personal loss when they risk billions of dollars in the market and lose it. They also have the implicit guarantee of the state that if they do lose billions, they will be bailed out.

It's like going to casino and having the ability to take all your winnings home, while someone else pays for your losses. Who would turn that down?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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26-03-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 10:36 AM)bemore Wrote:  So people have spoken about money as a means of exchange for real, tangible items. Sure you go to work, you do something productive and for this you are given tokens that reflect your input into the world. With these tokens you purchase food, drink, technology and it helps maintain order to a degree.

What about the "intangible" things where money is involved. Where people gamble on the stock exchange... where computers buy and sell to themselves with high frequency trading algorithims? The artifical suppresing of interest rates in the Libor scandal?

How does that work in todays society? What actual good does this do except add more zeros to peoples bank balances?

The growing gap between the rich and the poor? Is that an indicator that our current monetary system is fair in our "democratic" countries where everybody is deemed to be "equal" and awarded for participating in the system instead of leeching off it?

Emphasis today is put on people leeching on the system, the people at the bottom of the chain are losing out on essential services that are needed and people use everyday because they have to reduce the deficit. People are losing their jobs and income and certain banks show no profits yet the people at the top are awarded bonuses equating to billions of tokens?

Is that not also "leeching" off the system but on a massive scale?
I really like your thoughts here, bemore.

Money is indeed the best system we've come up (so far) but it's far from perfect. As you point out, it allows for all sorts of abuse that is extremely inefficient. One need only pick up a newspaper to see this and where it's headed. Barter, while inefficient does not lend itself to abuse so easily. I like to say that money is not the root of all evil but it sure makes it a lot easier.

Shortly after the origin of money, man began the struggle of finding ways of controlling it. Some wanted to make things more fair and others wished to find ways to control it for themselves. Take a look at the tax code, budgets, jurisprudence, and all that went into that. Money is not quite as efficient as we may wish to think it is. And no, I don't have a better idea.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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26-03-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 10:59 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 10:36 AM)bemore Wrote:  Is that not also "leeching" off the system but on a massive scale?
It is indeed leeching off the system. But it isn't money that facilitates that behavior. No sane individual would ever take the sorts of risks that these people take if it were actually their own money on the line. However, because of the state created fiction called a corporation, these bankers don't suffer a personal loss when they risk billions of dollars in the market and lose it. They also have the implicit guarantee of the state that if they do lose billions, they will be bailed out.

It's like going to casino and having the ability to take all your winnings home, while someone else pays for your losses. Who would turn that down?
Actually, it's worse than that. Because of the fractional-reserve system, these same bankers can conjur money at a key stroke so quickly that it would make even the most brazen counterfeiter blush with shame.. As a result, these bankers will lever up termendously with money created from nothing - but which creates some real debt when they lose.

Currently, JP Morgan Bank is levered 10-1 (for every 1 dollar deposited, they created 9 more). And that is why the CEO of JP Morgan says he is richer than you (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...0680.html) He's just so fuckin' smart - because he can create money from nothing.

Hedge Funds and so-called Private Equity will easily lever 100-1 in order to purchase a profitable company to loot. This is called "Extracting Value" - or some such shit.
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26-03-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 01:57 PM)Julius Wrote:  Actually, it's worse than that. Because of the fractional-reserve system, these same bankers can conjur money at a key stroke so quickly that it would make even the most brazen counterfeiter blush with shame.. As a result, these bankers will lever up termendously with money created from nothing - but which creates some real debt when they lose.

Currently, JP Morgan Bank is levered 10-1 (for every 1 dollar deposited, they created 9 more). And that is why the CEO of JP Morgan says he is richer than you (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...0680.html) He's just so fuckin' smart - because he can create money from nothing.

Hedge Funds and so-called Private Equity will easily lever 100-1 in order to purchase a profitable company to loot. This is called "Extracting Value" - or some such shit.
Fractional reserve banking isn't the problem either. It's how they structure risk that is the problem. As I said above, in a marketplace without the state there to protect their personal profits, these bankers would not assume as much risk as they do.

Fractional reserve banking is no different than a business owner borrowing money to expand operations. He may borrow ten times more than he has in liquid assets but if the venture is properly organized, the risk is minimized and he is able to pay back the money he borrowed and profit above it. The only difference with a bank is that the product they sell is rented money. If a bank lends ten times its deposits in creditworthy loans and holds insurance against default, the risk is minimal and the bank makes back all the money it lent and profits above it.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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26-03-2013, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2013 03:11 PM by Julius.)
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 02:32 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Fractional reserve banking is no different than a business owner borrowing money to expand operations. He may borrow ten times more than he has in liquid assets...
No. Banks do not borrow money - they create it.

Also, do you realize that some of the largest corporations in America are really Banks in disguise? General Electric, General Motors and Cisco Systems are three fine examples. These companies are really banks disguised as industrial conglomerates. The customers who buy their products more often than not "borrow" the money that these companies create via their private banks.

How about that?

BTW, have you ever read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged"? I have, and the book is one hell of a dry tome, but it does make me laugh at the end where Ayn Rand describes the perfect world of "Galt's Gulch": the place where all the world's smart and productive people go when they go on strike. The funny thing about "Galt's Gulch" is that it was not owned by Galt, or anyone else who made anything. It was all completely owned and governed by a BANKER! So it makes me laugh even harder when I hear pro Wall Street types wondering WHEN people will "Go Galt" - go to that magic place and go on strike. But I have news for them....we are already nearing a Galt's Gulch writ large, because slowly and surely the bankers are creating enough money to buy the world.

Think about it.
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26-03-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 02:43 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 02:32 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Fractional reserve banking is no different than a business owner borrowing money to expand operations. He may borrow ten times more than he has in liquid assets...
No. Banks do not borrow money - they create it.
Thumbsup

http://www.positivemoney.org/how-banks-c...ce-sheets/

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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26-03-2013, 04:26 PM
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 02:43 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(26-03-2013 02:32 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Fractional reserve banking is no different than a business owner borrowing money to expand operations. He may borrow ten times more than he has in liquid assets...
No. Banks do not borrow money - they create it.

Also, do you realize that some of the largest corporations in America are really Banks in disguise? General Electric, General Motors and Cisco Systems are three fine examples. These companies are really banks disguised as industrial conglomerates. The customers who buy their products more often than not "borrow" the money that these companies create via their private banks.

How about that?

BTW, have you ever read Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged"? I have, and the book is one hell of a dry tome, but it does make me laugh at the end where Ayn Rand describes the perfect world of "Galt's Gulch": the place where all the world's smart and productive people go when they go on strike. The funny thing about "Galt's Gulch" is that it was not owned by Galt, or anyone else who made anything. It was all completely owned and governed by a BANKER! So it makes me laugh even harder when I hear pro Wall Street types wondering WHEN people will "Go Galt" - go to that magic place and go on strike. But I have news for them....we are already nearing a Galt's Gulch writ large, because slowly and surely the bankers are creating enough money to buy the world.

Think about it.
They are the same in that they are leveraging someone else's assets for the purpose of creating a profit. Insurance works on the same principle. If all of a company's insureds claimed at once, they would be unable to pay the claims. Moreover, I can "create" money in much the same way banks do and so can you. Leveraging is not illegal or unethical, just as cleaning swimming pools isn't illegal or unethical. They can be done in such ways but that doesn't resign them to that description.


And no, I've not read Atlass Shrugged. I don't read fiction as a matter of personal preference. I've read some of her non fiction and for the most part, I agree with her.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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26-03-2013, 04:41 PM (This post was last modified: 26-03-2013 04:56 PM by Zat.)
RE: The Nature of Money
(26-03-2013 04:26 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  I don't read fiction as a matter of personal preference

What a sad admission, but it explains a lot.

I used to have a friend who once bragged: "if it is a novel, I have not read it".

I always felt sorry for him.

How pathetic and culturally deprived! Sad
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