The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
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20-06-2011, 04:43 PM
 
The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible

Infinite Regress is Impossible
1. We observe trillions and trillions of cause and effects in nature, and no hard evidence something comes from nothing, which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. If there was an infinite regress you would have happened already having had an eternity do so. And you would never have existed because the past would continue to go on for eternity never reaching this point. As you can see, infinite regress in all its varieties (e.g. cycles, mutiverses) is inherently contradictory and therefore, false.

Something Can't Come From Nothing
2. Something can't come from nothing (non-existence) either, because that which does not exist can't cause anything. Nothing always leaves nothing from nothing. Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process in an isolated system, the total energy remains the same. Since that which does not exist has no energy, it cannot produce a singularity for the universe. Many times I have heard atheists say, "The properties of the universe are different from the whole, so the composition doesn't abide in cause and effect when it was brought into being." Of course, this is doublespeak because for something to be "brought into being" requires a cause.

A Mind is Needed to Create a Mind
3. Since nature can't always have existed nor start up from nothing, there must exist that which is outside of nature, that is, outside of time and space which always existed. This is whom we call the uncreated Creator. If you want to compare an always existing timeless singularity to the uncreated Creator, simply observe what we know that that which doesn't have a mind, will, emotion, conscience, intuition, or self-consciousness can't produce that which does. The lesser can never produce the greater. There has not even been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe to be able to do so. If you claim time is needed to bring about this universe from a singularity but the singularity has no time then this universe would never have existed if a causeless singularity existed.

The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God
4. Now that we know the uncreated Creator exists, we can compare. A God who is accessible and personal is better than one that is not. Only in Christianity do we find God enters His creation and dies for the sins of the world and proves He is our Creator by resurrecting Himself from the dead which can only occur supernaturally. Since almost all skeptical scholars concede for good reasons the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings and there are no naturalistic explanations that can account for the origin of the disciples' beliefs (having exhausted them all), we should submit ourselves to this evidence, because if a person doesn't, they will surely go to Hell according to Jesus our Creator.
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20-06-2011, 05:15 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Every step of your proof is based on silly assumptions.

1. Why is infinite regress impossible? You are assuming that because it boggles your mind it can't happen.

2. This would disprove God creating everything, because he is making something out of nothing. Unless you think matter and energy are eternal, in which case God isn't necessary.

3. Baseless assumption. Why can't natural properties of energy and matter lead to nature and intelligence? You have no reason to assume they can't, except that the idea seems incredible to your limited imagination. And if a mind is needed to create a mind, you have infinite regress or no minds at all. If you want to say that a mind has always existed, this violates a mind requiring a mind.

4. There is no reason to believe the resurrection ever occurred. There are countless explanations for your imaginary resurrection:
-Jesus never died, he was taken off the cross and away before it killed him.
-The gospels are completely fictional, written after the fact by people who wanted to start a cult by romanticizing the life of a particular Jew who was executed for pissing off the religious leaders of the time.


Not that you'll actually listen to any of this. If you want to think that whatever dogma your subscribe to supports your belief, then I would recommend avoiding places where people disagree with you. If you want to learn something or improve your knowledge and understanding, then don't hold your beliefs above logic and reason.

All a reasonable religious person can have is faith, blind faith. Many seem to think that this is a good thing, and if you feel that way then searching for faulty "evidence" to support your faith only indicates that you lack it and are struggling to hold onto your comforting notions about the afterlife.
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20-06-2011, 05:21 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Zach,

You can't have it both ways. You can't have an infinite regress of cause and effects without having had an infinite regress of cause and effects to come into being.

Don't be doubleminded.
Zach,

God is not making something from nothing. He is creating out from Himself. God is not nothing.
Zach,

The lesser can't produce the greater. Consciousness is needed to create consciousness. Just observe the evidence that this fact remains true in your own experience as well.
Zach,

None of your theories fit the data, for example, Jesus wouldn't have looked much like a risen Messiah if he survived the cross. He couldn't even walk with holes in his feet.
Zach,

So you see the difference between your faith and the Christian faith is your faith is blind and the Christian faith is proven by the evidence.
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20-06-2011, 06:54 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
why can't nothing-ness create something-ness? Without nothing there wouldn't be something. Without white, no black. Open your mind.
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20-06-2011, 07:27 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
LadyJane,

Not true. Just because there was nothing but God doesn't mean there can't be anything upon God creating it. Whereas that which does not exist can't create anything because it can't cause anything, for it doesn't exist. Whereas God creates out from Himself.
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20-06-2011, 07:36 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
This seems to be a version of the Kalam Cosmological Argument, specifically the one given by William Lane Craig.

I have a question about premise 2 Parture. By nothing do you mean nothing as in the sense of a lack of substantial entities like galaxies, particles, planets etc. or do you mean a complete lack of any possible thing even vacuum space?

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

Light and Nature

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20-06-2011, 07:45 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Robertus,

Actually this is not like the Kalam's argument because the Kalam's argument assumes that the big bang had a beginning and that it must have a cause. Whereas the 4 Step Proof assumes nothing, but goes with the evidence of trillions and trillions of causes and no hard evidence of something from nothing, thus proving nature needs a cause outside of itself, showing why infinite regress is false in step 1, and in step 2 that the cause can't be nothing for that which does not exist can't cause anything. When I say that which does not exist I am referring not to empty space but non-existence. Empty space still has particles.

By the way William Lane Craig is going to Hell because he is not born-again since he refuses to give his life to the God who keeps, for the Bible is clear those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Whereas Craig believes he could lose salvation like the Roman Church teaches. The Roman Church in the Bible is considered the great harlot that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8).
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20-06-2011, 07:49 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Parture you post more than me. That's crazy. Do you understand how crazy that is?
But you're cheating, every new post you have is the same. That's unfair, don't they teach you fairness in bible school? You need a new schtick. Let's turn this one into a discussion on the coolest ninja turtle, and the best of their movies. I'll start.
I always liked donatello, because he was the smart one, plus when I was a kid playing TMNT, I couldn't bring myself to use nun chucks, sais or a sword because they seemed to damaging. Also I liked sadly, the second movie the best, and yes it was because of the ninja rap. Shoot me if you must.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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20-06-2011, 08:01 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
lucradis,

I'm only in 3 threads. How many threads have you posted in? I am just resonding what people ask of me. I doubt you are doing the same.
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20-06-2011, 08:17 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must, of course ask next where God comes from? And if we decide this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed? [Carl Sagan, Cosmos, page 257]

The God excuse: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument. "God did it." Anything we can't describe must have come from God. - George Carlin

Whenever I'm asked "What if you're wrong?", I always show the asker this video: http://youtu.be/iClejS8vWjo Screw Pascal's wager.
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