The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 4 Votes - 2 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-06-2011, 08:22 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Robertus,

Quote:Whereas the 4 Step Proof assumes nothing, but goes with the evidence of trillions and trillions of causes and no hard evidence of something from nothing, thus proving nature needs a cause outside of itself, showing why infinite regress is false in step 1, and in step 2 that the cause can't be nothing for that which does not exist can't cause anything.

All the way back in 97' Scientists at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center created Particles from Light. Literally matter from nothing.


Quote: When I say that which does not exist I am referring not to empty space but non-existence. Empty space still has particles.

Indeed it does or actually that there are still electro-magnetic waves and heat fluctuation in vacuum space, I'm glad you know this. So many other Apologists I've interacted with do not.

Though a question is raised by this. The Laws of Causality only operate between things composed of the two substances that make up existence, matter and energy. If there was ever absolutely nothing than the laws of causality don't exist either. If there ever was nothing, than there was no need to have a first cause.

There is an assumption within the third premise that I reject. You are assuming that there can be such thing as a disembodied mind. I think you'll need some solid evidence for this.

Is the Resurrection really proof that what Jesus said was true? Doesn't Scripture say that the anti-christ will perform miracles? Will you be defending his Divinity and his claims?

Quote:By the way William Lane Craig is going to Hell because he is not born-again since he refuses to give his life to the God who keeps, for the Bible is clear those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Whereas Craig believes he could lose salvation like the Roman Church teaches. The Roman Church in the Bible is considered the great harlot that makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (Rev. 14.8).

Interesting, if I may ask what denomination are you a part of? Are you Reformed in your theology?

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

Light and Nature

Tweet!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 08:30 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Robertus,

Nobody has ever created anything from nothing, that which does not exist. That which does not exist can't create anything. It doesn't exist. That which does not exist can't cause anything. It doesn't exist.
Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 08:34 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 08:30 PM)Parture Wrote:  Nobody has ever created anything from nothing,

Watch me, I'm doing it right now. Can you see it?

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 08:40 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 08:30 PM)Parture Wrote:  Robertus,

Nobody has ever created anything from nothing, that which does not exist. That which does not exist can't create anything. It doesn't exist. That which does not exist can't cause anything. It doesn't exist.

So by your own definition there could never have been nothing. Since nothing cannot cause something, therefore there never was nothing since there is something now so there was no creation ex nihilo. Unless you're going to beg the question and retreat to special pleading.

Anyway, why is God immune from infinite regress? Your first premise says there has to be an ender because you propose that an infinity is illogical. Assuming your argument is true why is God the end of the regress? Because you say so? Because your definition of God doesn't allow it to have a beginning?

And where is your evidence that a dis-embodied mind exists?

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

Light and Nature

Tweet!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 08:45 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Robertus,

Ex Nihilo doesn't mean someting from non-existence but but God creating out of Himself whence there is nothing yet created.

If there was an infinite regress of cause and effects then you would have happened already having had an eternity to come into being, so obviously nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space being uncreated. And this is whom we call God.

God brings time into existence.
Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 08:54 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 08:45 PM)Parture Wrote:  God brings time into existence.

Yes, we do. Now you're getting it.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 08:54 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 08:01 PM)Parture Wrote:  lucradis,

I'm only in 3 threads. How many threads have you posted in? I am just resonding what people ask of me. I doubt you are doing the same.

Hell you are not, I'm still waiting to see your answer to my only question, why is not possible that the "apostols" made up the whole biblical history?

By the time you stop ready this, you'll realze what a waste of time it has been Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 08:59 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Quote:Robertus,

Ex Nihilo doesn't mean someting from non-existence but but God creating out of Himself whence there is nothing yet created.

So you're accepting the fact that your logic failed? Even in our hypothetical nothing there was still something that's called God from which all of our matter, energy, and space emerged from. This is special pleading.

Your argument is thus: There was at one time nothing that existed, but God created existence from himself. Do you not see how this is special pleading? God is in his own category out side of the argument and outside of our logical discussion. I might as well say that there is a mechanical outside force that by it's nature will generate Matter and Existence, it's just as likely and just as much special pleading.

Quote:If there was an infinite regress of cause and effects then you would have happened already having had an eternity to come into being, so obviously nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space being uncreated. And this is whom we call God.

God brings time into existence.

So you've conjured up God as an ender to your regress, why? Why can't it be Branes or something else that exists outside of space and time? And why is God immune? If you say that it's because he's God then you still Pleading.

Again, where is your proof for a dis-embodied mind?

Why is the Resurrection proof that Christ's claims are true?

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

Light and Nature

Tweet!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 09:03 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Efrx86,

It's illogical to think the universe always existed because you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call God the uncreated Creator.

Since the uncreated Creator is proven to exist it is illogical to then cask what caused the uncreated for He is uncreated.

Carl was not too bright.
Robertus,

You're special pleading for no uncreated Creator when the uncreated has been proven. You need to deal with the proof given for the uncreated Creator.
Quote this message in a reply
20-06-2011, 09:12 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 09:03 PM)Parture Wrote:  Efrx86,

It's illogical to think the universe always existed because you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so, so nature needs a cause outside of itself, outside of time and space, and this is whom we call God the uncreated Creator.

Since the uncreated Creator is proven to exist it is illogical to then cask what caused the uncreated for He is uncreated.

Carl was not too bright.
Robertus,

You're special pleading for no uncreated Creator when the uncreated has been proven. You need to deal with the proof given for the uncreated Creator.

Keep ignoring me you little "#!"#!, got perma ignored from now on.

By the time you stop ready this, you'll realze what a waste of time it has been Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: