The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
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21-06-2011, 04:50 AM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2011 04:57 AM by Hughsie.)
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 10:05 PM)Parture Wrote:  Efrx86,

We have the 27 books of the NT in perfect religio-historical context of the total of 66 books of the Bible across 1500 years and 40 authors and 12 different group settings recording the resurrection appearances of Jesus.

You know the disciples didn't lie because people don't willingly die for something they know is a lie; moreover, there is nothing to borrow since there are no resurrection accounts prior to Jesus in person.

You don't have this comprehensive documentation for your egyptian gods. In fact there are no eyewitnesses at all, you just have to assume they exist. Since you can't reproduce them realize you are mistaken.

Try again.

What if they were mistaken?
Parture,

You still haven't answered other peoples questions;

The ancient Egyptians SAW Osiris rise from the dead and ascend to heaven, why is that any less valid?

Ali and that companions of the prophet fought and WILLINGLY DIED after seeing and asteroid shower destroy a pagan army, why is that any less valid?

If you fail to answer these questions you are just confirming that you have no answer.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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21-06-2011, 06:24 AM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
This has already been soundly debunked by better minds than mine on this forum, but as a free thinker, I find your post offensive for a number of reasons:

Quote:The New 4 Step proof...

No, these are not new, you got the first two points from here and here and probably not here because you didn't think the 'something from nothing' arguement was actually older than christ, you probably went somewhere like here. The other two points are the kind of pseudo-scientific hyperbole that is unfortunately all too common in society today.

Quote:Infinite Regress is Impossible

Incorrect. Infitinte Regress is not impossible. It is improbable. I believe that the universe regressed to the point of something called the big bang, you may have heard of it.

Quote:Something Can't Come From Nothing

Incorrect. Scientists have already begun taking tentative steps to prove that you CAN create something from nothing. Read and learn.

Ultimately, scientists are still learning how something came from nothing - therefore there are two conclusions - that a divine being did it, or another explanation. I opt for the 'other' option, you opt for the 'divine being'. That's fine, but don't expect to come onto an a forum that largely supports the 'other' option and expect large scale conversions.

Quote:A mind is needed to create a mind

No...in these parts a little theory called evolution is very popular. I subscribe to it, Nature evolved over time. The creative capacity of our 'minds' is an evolved trait. Again...you believe that you were made by Shiva or whatever, I believe in a scientific theory. Again, it's okay for you to have a relationship with what/whoever makes you happy, but PLEASE don't try and force your beleifs onto a community that has no interest in believing in them.

Quote:The Resurrection Proves Jesus is God

Incorrect. Even if you accept that a physics-defying sky parent created everything, it is some leap to firstly give him/her gender, benevolence, omnipotence and then another massive leap to ignore the pantheon of gods that have come before and after the Christian God.

The story of the resurrection is a ]story. There are no sources to evidence it. There is a lot of evidence to prove that when people are dead, they are dead. The dead, do not come back life. Apart from in zombie films.

Please...go and post in a Christian or theist forum...you views will get more traction there.
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21-06-2011, 08:40 AM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Shannow,

We observe trillions of cause and effects which is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, and there is absolutely no evidence in any way whatsoever of something from nothing. That which doesn't exist can't cause anything. It doesn't exist.

The big bang didn't start up from nothing nor did it always exist because if there was an infinite regress, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so.

The 4 Step Proof for God is new in terms of its presentation and it has no assumptions. It assumes nothing and just lets the evidence lead us where it may which shows us trillions of causes in nature and no hard evidence of something from nothing so we go with this evidence. So no infinite regress because you would have happened already and something can't come from nothing. A mind is needed to create a mind and the resurrection proof by the eyewitness testimonies in various group settings has no naturalistic explanation.

Evolution didn't just pop into existence all by itself. It needs a cause. Hence, a mind is needed to create a mind. The lesser can never create the greater.

There were no resurrection claims or proofs prior to Jesus. So the burden remains on you to find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs for their eyewitness testimony seeing Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.
hughsie,

You weren't able to provide any record of anyone seeing Osiris rise from the dead and by the way this story of receiving a spell and then going back to sleep was added after Jesus. Jesus is the first resurrection and of a human being. Nobody ever sees these assumed ethereal gods dying so there is no evidence for them.

Willingly dying for something only indicates that you truly believed it and didn't lie. Whether it is true or not requires further investigation and evidence like we have for the disciples' eyewitness testimony in various group settings for which you are unable to find a naturalistic explanation.
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21-06-2011, 08:56 AM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 11:28 PM)Parture Wrote:  Robertus_,


Quote:How unique this is for there are no resurrections before Christ and none that walked the earth that claimed to be the creator of the universe. Nobody has ever seen these gods you speak of and there is no eyewitness testimony to them. But we have 45 sources for Jesus with 150 years of His death. He is the most documented person in antiquity. In fact, you can take any ten figures combined and Jesus has more sources.

You misunderstand and distort history. You're being dishonest.

The God Osiris has Over 1000 Witnesses to his resurrection and his life on Earth. He claimed to be God and existed at least 1000 years before Christ if not longer. You refuse to accept this evidence because you don't want to accept that there was a dying and rising savior before your Jesus. Jesus has only one source for his existence, the New Testament. This one source has been copied multiple times, that's it. Best "Attestation" only means the original source is readily available.


[quote]Since you are unable to find a naturalistic explanation for the eyewitness testimony of the disciples in various group settings then realize Jesus is God and salvation is only through Him. Praise the Lord!

Easy.

There were no eye-witnesses.

The Gospels were written nearly 100 hundred after the so called events transpired in places different than the events actually took place. You're aware that the earliest fragments of the New Testament Gospels and Letters are found in Rome? The Gospels especially were composed from Oral Tradition and sectarian Theology.

Quote:The question you should ask yourself is why do you keep avoiding this proof?

If you really are a Christian and value truth the thing you need to ask yourself is why do you keep parroting the same things? I've shown you that there were dying and rising gods before Jesus who have been attested to by eye-witnesses. I've given you the natural explanation for the gospels. You ignore them and claim victory.

This is sad, please interact with what myself and others are saying or this is just a complete waste of time.

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

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21-06-2011, 08:57 AM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Monk,

Christians are quite aware there are thousands of religions, but none of them have a resurrection before Christ making Jesus quite unique, God the Son, who entered into His creation.

Horus, for example, has no resurrection account. A resurrection is a human being who physically died then comes back to life. Jesus is the only one.
Robertus_,

I am just responding to queries like yours. I am here to help you.

There is no evidence for your late dating of the Scriptures. We can reproduce every verse of the NT except for 11 verses from the early church fathers in the 2nd century and late first century.

The Apostles died in the Neronian and other persecutions around 65 AD. It's quite difficult to write a text if you are dead. Luke wrote Acts a biography of Paul but makes no mention of his death (so he had not died yet when Acts was written) and said it was part two of his former work which was Luke. That places Acts around 55 AD and Luke around 45 AD. Since Luke took from Mark that places Mark around 35 AD just two years after the cross. And because Peter worked closely with Mark that places Peter's two books very early also.

Many scholars agree all the books of the NT were written before 65 AD except for Revelation which was written by John around 75 AD.

There are about 15 original papyri saved dated in the 2nd century. This is unheard of. The closesness of the books of the NT written to the time of their events exceeds the standard for all other ancient texts.

Most scholars concede the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings because it is so well documented and multiply corroborated. This is one fact you can glean from the Scriptures and take to the bank. It is as sure as any fact in antiquity. Since you can't find a naturlistic explanation to explain it away then give your life to Christ.
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21-06-2011, 09:46 AM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
The only sites that I can find that support your claim that Mark was written around 35 AD are christian apologetic sites (obviously another source should be sought due to their conflict of interest). Other sources place Mark around 65-75 AD (depending on how they interpret Mark 13:2, which references the destruction of the Jewish temple at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD). So the claim that these are eyewitness testimonies is flimsy, especially because life expectancy back then was shorter than the gap between Jesus's death and the time of writing. The writers of the Gospels were probably second hand witnesses at best.

Thanks for the offer, but I wouldn't give my life back to Christ. Him and his father are monsters and the source of evil in the world. If the Bible were true: Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." And if the Bible is not true, then people commit atrocities in the name of Yahweh and people should stand up against this dangerous delusion of authority from above.

To reiterate what people have been asking, why are you here? What are you trying to accomplish?

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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21-06-2011, 10:24 AM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2011 10:33 AM by Robertus_.)
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Quote:There is no evidence for your late dating of the Scriptures. We can reproduce every verse of the NT except for 11 verses from the early church fathers in the 2nd century and late first century.

This is simply falsehood.

The Church father Tertullain makes a passing mention of the gospels of Matthew and Mark and he claims that Mark is a piece of Gnostic Trash. Ignatius cites a passage from 1 Corinthians and that is questionable at best. To say that the gospels or even the so called letters of Paul are early is a faith statement.

Quote:The Apostles died in the Neronian and other persecutions around 65 AD. It's quite difficult to write a text if you are dead.


Prove it.

There is no proof outside the of the apocryphal books that the apostles were ever killed. Nero being the monster he was, don't you think he would have made a big deal over the fact he killed the leadership of his most hated enemies? You're also aware that the letters of Peter and James are forgeries right? Even Conservative scholars like F.F. Bruce and Bruce Metzger admit that Colossians, Ephesians, 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, and Hebrews are all either blatant forgeries or false sectarian theologies attributed to Paul or the other Apostles.

Quote:Luke wrote Acts a biography of Paul but makes no mention of his death (so he had not died yet when Acts was written) and said it was part two of his former work which was Luke. That places Acts around 55 AD and Luke around 45 AD. Since Luke took from Mark that places Mark around 35 AD just two years after the cross. And because Peter worked closely with Mark that places Peter's two books very early also.

Most scholars, including the hated Bart Ehrman and John Dominic Crossan, relate that there was no death of Paul. There is no proof that he was ever killed. Acts bears this out. It was only a later tradition that said that Paul was martyred in Rome. Also the earliest Lukan Fragment, not whole manuscript, fragment, dates to around 120 A.D.

Quote:Many scholars agree all the books of the NT were written before 65 AD except for Revelation which was written by John around 75 AD.

Only a small number of even Conservative scholars date the books this early. As much as I respect James Dunn and Darrell Bock they remain outliers of Biblical Scholarship.

Quote:There are about 15 original papyri saved dated in the 2nd century. This is unheard of. The closesness of the books of the NT written to the time of their events exceeds the standard for all other ancient texts.

Only if you assume because of your faith that the vast majority of these texts are written so early. Again, the majority of textual scholars disagree. If you're going to believe an early date than it's only by faith.

Quote:Most scholars concede the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings because it is so well documented and multiply corroborated. This is one fact you can glean from the Scriptures and take to the bank. It is as sure as any fact in antiquity. Since you can't find a naturlistic explanation to explain it away then give your life to Christ.

I've given the Naturalistic explanation. As a Historian I cannot accept a supernatural faith based acceptance of some historical event. Just as I don't accept the resurrection for grilled fish, the Weapons without owners fighting at the temple of delphi, and the storm of poseidon that caused the destruction of the Persian Fleet as narrated by Herodotus, I cannot accept the Biblical Stories as fact unless I must accept the whole of ancient Supernatural history as fact.

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

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21-06-2011, 12:34 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(20-06-2011 05:21 PM)Parture Wrote:  Zach,

You can't have it both ways. You can't have an infinite regress of cause and effects without having had an infinite regress of cause and effects to come into being.

Don't be doubleminded.
Zach,

God is not making something from nothing. He is creating out from Himself. God is not nothing.
Zach,

The lesser can't produce the greater. Consciousness is needed to create consciousness. Just observe the evidence that this fact remains true in your own experience as well.
Zach,

None of your theories fit the data, for example, Jesus wouldn't have looked much like a risen Messiah if he survived the cross. He couldn't even walk with holes in his feet.
Zach,

So you see the difference between your faith and the Christian faith is your faith is blind and the Christian faith is proven by the evidence.

So you can't have an infinite regress because it requires infinite regress? That's not much of an argument. Try stating your "proof" in a way that isn't ambiguous. Show me clearly how your conclusion follows from your premises.

If God is creating something from himself, what is God? You're being vague, is God matter or energy? Based on the many conflicting descriptions I'm given, he seems to be just a petty, dimwitted, violent consciousness that exists somewhere and has the ability to change reality with its thoughts. If you want to claim that God is beyond our comprehension, then you can't tell me anything about him.

You aren't being as vague when you say that "lesser can't produce greater", so this can easily be refuted. Us humans produce things greater than us all the time. We can create computers that can think faster than us, we can create machines that are physically stronger than us. Give me a concrete definition of greater, and I'll give you an example of humans creating something "greater" than themselves.

You aren't giving me any data to refute my suggestions. Do you have any sources for Jesus outside the bible? If so, give me one.

Now, either keep making vague statements that claim to know something I don't, but then refusing to give me any source to back up your claims, or stop avoiding the question and give a straight answer. Saying there are more sources for Jesus than for anyone else in history isn't convincing, if you want to base your argument on that then give me the sources. Name them, tell me where to find, them, whatever. If you want to say evidence supports your claim, tell me what the evidence is. Referencing vague, imaginary evidence and sources gives no zero credibility.

The only one here with blind faith here is you. I am not making any claims, I'm simply rejecting yours. If you think your claims have merit, provide evidence. The word "evidence" is not evidence, and the word "source" is not historical evidence for Jesus.
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21-06-2011, 01:16 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Glaucus,

I don't know any scholars who produce such late dating of the Scriptures as you do, for there is no good reason to do so, but even if we used your late dating it is still earlier than any other text in antiquity so you lose either way. There is even no reason to think the NT has such a late dating. And it wouldn't make much sense since the Apostles were martyred before then. None are qualified to write the NT books but the Apostles.

Luke wrote Acts a biography of Paul but makes no mention of his death so Paul had not died yet at the time of writing Acts. Mentioning one's death is sort of an important detail not to leave out when writing a biography. Several times Paul is mentioned as having almost died so to not mention his death would be weird if he had already died. Paul died in the Neronian persecutions around 65 AD so Acts was written before then around 55 AD. Since Acts is part two of his former worker, that places Luke around 45 AD, and since Luke took from Mark that places Mark around 35 AD just two years after the cross.

You can be confident the all the books of the NT were written when the events took place or shortly thereafter since you have no reason to think otherwise.
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21-06-2011, 01:18 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
OK guys , I see Parture is till around so you might want to take a look at the following …
They may give a little insight ,
,he’s been performing his little act since at least 2008 and probably before but I cant be bothered to chase it down.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Parture

http://carm.org/troy-brooks

Even other crazies think he’s weird..
Check out the U-Tube vids ..
to paraphrase a character in the True Grit movie.."I call that bald talk for a no brained slap head".
(Apologies to the forum for the Ad Hom attack but he had a go at me on his other thread. I plead self defence ,he drew first.)

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
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