The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
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21-06-2011, 01:21 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Robertus_,

The Scriptures give us 7 instances where Paul almost died by stoning and various other means.

The first mention of Paul's death was by Clement of Rome. Clement of Rome said Paul was martyred. Clement wrote this about 70 AD. He also said Peter was martyred. We have at least 12 early sources talking about the martyrdom of the 12 Apostles (except for John). That's more than enough since it far exceeds that for any other person in antiquity who died.
(21-06-2011 01:18 PM)watchman Wrote:  OK guys , I see Parture is till around so you might want to take a look at the following …
They may give a little insight ,
,he’s been performing his little act since at least 2008 and probably before but I cant be bothered to chase it down.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Parture

http://carm.org/troy-brooks

Even other crazies think he’s weird..
Check out the U-Tube vids ..
to paraphrase a character in the True Grit movie.."I call that bald talk for a no brained slap head".
(Apologies to the forum for the Ad Hom attack but he had a go at me on his other thread. I plead self defence ,he drew first.)

That link is from a Calvinist Matt J. Slick owner of CARM who is a false Christian since he is a Calvinist. In other words he worships a false Christ in which children go to Hell for being born into sin and people are not given sufficient grace to have the choice to receive Christ but are irresistibly selected. What love is that? As Dave Hunt says a person forced to do something against their will is of the same opinion still.

Calvinism is not Christianity. Here is an analysis of Matt Slick why he is unsaved and going to Hell and response to what he wrote.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/mattslick.htm

How does God save? He predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. Praise the Lord! Amen.


Zach,

How silly to think computers are greater than humans. If so then see if you can create a human being. You can't. Computers don't have free will or God-consciousness, feelings, intuition, conscience, self-consciousness.
Robertus_,

You have a choice to believe whatever you want, but the evidence is in the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, that they touched, talked with and ate with Him too. Since this is as sure a fact as any in ancient history and God says proof of His existence is by observing natural laws (Rom. 1.20) then in order to overturn this you would need a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the disciples. Yet none are forthcoming. Shutting your mind down is not a legitimate response because you are just shutting your mind down to the evidence and not letting it lead you where it man. God created Hell for people such as yourself that don't care about reality.



I have read the entire Bible from beginning to end very thoroughly and slowly, and I am on my second reading right now from beginning to end with a second study guide. I am reading the Apologetics Study Bible this time. My first reading was the Life Application Study Bible. Anyway, I can comfirm by the Holy Spirit that all 66 books of the Bible belong, are without error, I understand it all, and it is truly the word of God what God has provided for us to explain His redemptive design.

Praise the Lord!
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21-06-2011, 02:14 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(21-06-2011 01:16 PM)Parture Wrote:  I don't know any scholars who produce such late dating of the Scriptures as you do, for there is no good reason to do so...

Some might call it a leap of faith to trust CNN, but here's the timeline that they have included in additional resources for their program "After Jesus,":

[Image: timeline.jpg]
[the * means the dates are approximate]

As for there being no good reason to question the dates of the Gospels, it is a HUGE deal for humanity to get to the bottom of this. There are 2 billion christians in this world basing their decisions (good and bad) on these books. People are empowered by these to say and do terrible things, all with authority from Yahweh. Dating them can do one of two things: Improve their authority as resources if they are from the times of Jesus, or discredit them if they are not. Either way, we'd be closer to truth.

Quote:You can be confident the all the books of the NT were written when the events took place or shortly thereafter since you have no reason to think otherwise.

The reasons and resources listed above give me plenty of reasons to think otherwise. We're atheists because we don't take things on faith, we take them on evidence, and you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary, just assertions.

Think of it like this: The Flat Earth idea is an easy one to "prove," because when I look over Denver I don't see the curvature of the Earth. The Earth from here looks flat, and I'd have no reason to think otherwise. But I've looked into it further (and paid attention in school), I've seen photos from space and I've read books about Magellan's voyage and the other 15th century explorers. The evidence against the flat Earth model is overwhelming, all because people haven't thought like you (as they did for millenia).

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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21-06-2011, 02:24 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Glaucus,

The Apostles were martyred by 65 AD so that places all the NT books before 65 AD except for Revelation which was written about 95 AD. In fact there has been some work done on the Dead Sea Scrolls in which they claim there is up to 27 passages in 12 books of the NT that are carbon dated before 65 AD which would include Mark, Luke, John and Matthew.

And as I showed you, Mark is dated around 35 AD, just two years after the cross. Paul was converted 2 years after the cross and three years after that he came to Jerusalem to spend 15 days with Peter, and with John and James. Luke would be about 45 AD or earlier, and Acts about 55 AD or earlier since Paul was martyred around 65 AD and Luke makes no mention of his death in Acts but does describe his near death experiences.

James was the first Apostle to be martyred so he was martyred probably sometime before 40 AD.

Matthew, Luke, Mark and John were all written before 40 AD and possibly as soon as the events took place and certainly long before they were martyred.

The reason you misdate things is not so dissimilar for the reason you are atheist, because you don't care about evidence since obviously atheism is false since something can't come from nothing and infinite regress has been shown to be impossible. Since atheism is proven false to remain atheist shows how mindless you are. You don't care about evidence. What you care about is your hostility towards your creator just like Satan the Devil. You will be with Satan soon enough when you will be resurrected for Hell. After the millennial reign you and Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

When you accuse Christians of doing terrible things, all you need to do is ask the question would Jesus do that? If not then they are not Christians for the Holy Spirit restrains Christians from such things. We are quite unlike you and your atheist brethren like Hitler who killed 30 million, Stalin 40 million and Mao 60 million in their conquest for natural selection.

You are also under the misconception there are billions of Christians on the planet. Of course that is nonsense since the Bible says believers are a "little flock" and the New City is only 1379 x 1379 miles which could not fit that many, perhaps a billion souls from all previous centuries up to the end of the millennial kingdom.

Just because a person says they are a Christian or because you hear some statistic that 1/3 are Christians doesn't mean it is true. It must fit with the word of God.
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21-06-2011, 02:26 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
[Presuming this Parture is the Parture from the youtubes]

http://www.youtube.com/user/Parture#p/u/13/JyMc7U256lA

This is ridiculous, this is the guy we are arguing with.

Here is the clip on the atheist experience #675:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXkc7ToYsTI

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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21-06-2011, 02:29 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Quote:Robertus_,

The Scriptures give us 7 instances where Paul almost died by stoning and various other means.

The first mention of Paul's death was by Clement of Rome. Clement of Rome said Paul was martyred. Clement wrote this about 70 AD. He also said Peter was martyred. We have at least 12 early sources talking about the martyrdom of the 12 Apostles (except for John). That's more than enough since it far exceeds that for any other person in antiquity who died.

What are these "Early Sources"?

Are they Christians who believed what was taught to them by the Oral Tradition?

The irony of quoting Clement is that he believed things that I doubt you believe. Do you Believe that Jesus was about 50 when he died? Do you believe that Clement had the authority to speak authoritatively for all Christians? Do you believe that Jesus killed his childhood best friend and then brought him back to life? Do you believe that Salvation is found in the Sacramentum? Clement believed all of these things and more. Unless you accept all of these traditions you cannot say that Clement is a reliable source for any part of history excluding the things that Christians at the time believed.

The final point though. I know that Clement says that Peter was crucified upside down, I know that Clement says that Paul was beheaded. But did you read where he learned this from? He says that he learned it from The Elders. He wasn't a witness, he believed it because he was told it was true!


Quote:Robertus_,

You have a choice to believe whatever you want, but the evidence is in the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, that they touched, talked with and ate with Him too. Since this is as sure a fact as any in ancient history and God says proof of His existence is by observing natural laws (Rom. 1.20) then in order to overturn this you would need a naturalistic explanation to account for the eyewitness testimony of the disciples. Yet none are forthcoming. Shutting your mind down is not a legitimate response because you are just shutting your mind down to the evidence and not letting it lead you where it man. God created Hell for people such as yourself that don't care about reality.

I've given you a naturalistic explanation, you refuse to accept it. Your pre-supposition that the life of Jesus is just as sure as anything else in ancient history is fallacious. Unless you accept the miracle stories of Herodotus as well as the birth, death, and resurrection of Osiris, you're commencing special pleading for your case.

Quote:I have read the entire Bible from beginning to end very thoroughly and slowly, and I am on my second reading right now from beginning to end with a second study guide. I am reading the Apologetics Study Bible this time. My first reading was the Life Application Study Bible. Anyway, I can comfirm by the Holy Spirit that all 66 books of the Bible belong, are without error, I understand it all, and it is truly the word of God what God has provided for us to explain His redemptive design.

This is sheer fallacy.

Are you Mormon?

Mormons also believe because they get that feeling in their heart that it's true. You know this isn't a good reason to believe anything let alone that some ancient document is supposed to be the revelation of the Eternal God of the Universe.

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

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21-06-2011, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2011 02:34 PM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
(21-06-2011 02:24 PM)Parture Wrote:  Glaucus,

The Apostles were martyred by 65 AD so that places all the NT books before 65 AD except for Revelation which was written about 95 AD. And as I showed you, Mark is dated around 35 AD, just two years after the cross. Paul was converted 2 years after the cross and three years after that he came to Jerusalem to spend 15 days with Peter, and with John and James. Luke would be about 45 AD or earlier, and Acts about 55 AD or earlier since Paul was martyred around 65 AD and makes no mention of his death in Acts.

James was the first Apostle to be martyred so he was martyred probably sometime before 40 AD.

Matthew, Luke, Mark and John were all written before 40 AD and possibly as soon as the events took place and certainly long before they were martyred.


Do you notice how Glaucus at least attempts to show sources and graphs of studies, while you have yet to provide anything but your own text, complete with vague references to these "scholars" who all agree on something or other.

Which scholars? If you claim Mark was 35 AD, then cite a historian who agrees with you, or in the least a website that doesn't sound like "creationscience" or "answersingenesis."

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF OF ANYTHING YOU SAY?
(21-06-2011 02:26 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  This is ridiculous, this is the guy we are arguing with.

Here is the clip on the atheist experience #675:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXkc7ToYsTI

I've seen that Atheist Experience before, didn't even realize it was this person. And look, it's been an entire year and he has yet to acknowledge the valid rebuttals or add anything to his argument.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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21-06-2011, 02:38 PM
 
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Buddy Christ,

Here's the response video to that video,

Leading Martin Wagner to Christ.





and



Billion Pound Gorilla of Atheism



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21-06-2011, 02:52 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Next he'll say he soundly defeated martin and russel with no resistance, and that they are in denial of the "one true path".
BC, as many of us have said, hes not here to debate, hes here to preach, reaffirm his fragile belief and tell us what heathen scum we are.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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21-06-2011, 02:53 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Lets deal with these one by one.

(21-06-2011 02:24 PM)Parture Wrote:  The Apostles were martyred by 65 AD so that places all the NT books before 65 AD except for Revelation which was written about 95 AD.

So the logical conclusion is that they weren't written by the apostles.

(21-06-2011 02:24 PM)Parture Wrote:  And as I showed you...

You've asserted, but you haven't given evidence.

(21-06-2011 02:24 PM)Parture Wrote:  The reason you misdate things is not so dissimilar for the reason you are atheist, because you don't care about evidence since obviously atheism is false since something can't come from nothing and infinite regress has been shown to be impossible. Since atheism is proven false to remain atheist shows how mindless you are. You don't care about evidence. What you care about is your hostility towards your creator just like Satan the Devil. You will be with Satan soon enough when you will be resurrected for Hell. After the millennial reign you and Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

You caught me? Try promoting your faith through evidence rather than fear and threats of damnation.

(21-06-2011 02:24 PM)Parture Wrote:  When you accuse Christians of doing terrible things, all you need to do is ask the question would Jesus do that? If not then they are not Christians for the Holy Spirit restrains Christians from such things. We are quite unlike you and your atheist brethren like Hitler who killed 30 million, Stalin 40 million and Mao 60 million in their conquest for natural selection.

A few things here:
1) Jesus = Yahweh, so the crimes that Yahweh committed in the OT were also committed by Jesus (If you want specifics of the crimes of your Lord, I'd be glad to supply them)
2) Hitler worked closely with the Pope and thought he was doing God's work by killing the Jews, ergo he wasn't an atheist.
3) Yes, Stalin and Mao were atheists, but did they murder those people in the name of atheism? No, they murdered in the name of Communism (another belief that there is something greater than the individual, the collective). How many people have been murdered in "the name of God"? The list includes the crusades, Inquisition, colonization of America, etc.

(21-06-2011 02:24 PM)Parture Wrote:  You are also under the misconception there are billions of Christians on the planet. Of course that is nonsense since the Bible says believers are a "little flock" and the New City is only 1379 x 1379 miles which could not fit that many, perhaps a billion souls from all previous centuries up to the end of the millennial kingdom.

Just because a person says they are a Christian or because you hear some statistic that 1/3 are Christians doesn't mean it is true. It must fit with the word of God.

You missed the point of my argument:

Quote:As for there being no good reason to question the dates of the Gospels, it is a HUGE deal for humanity to get to the bottom of this. There are 2 billion christians in this world basing their decisions (good and bad) on these books. People are empowered by these to say and do terrible things, all with authority from Yahweh. Dating them can do one of two things: Improve their authority as resources if they are from the times of Jesus, or discredit them if they are not. Either way, we'd be closer to truth.

The point was that no matter how many christians there are, they're basing their decisions on one book and it's effecting society in good and bad ways. Shouldn't we be concerned if it's true or not?

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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21-06-2011, 02:54 PM
RE: The New 4 Step Perfect Proof for God of the Bible
Parture - quick bit of forum 101...when someone has proved you wrong, you don't just repeat the theory - That's something of a waste of time.

Perhaps you missed the links (blue text) in my last reply.

Quote: there is absolutely no evidence in any way whatsoever of something from nothing.

You got the evidence last time.

Quote:The big bang didn't start up from nothing

I didn't say it did!

Quote:The 4 Step Proof for God is new in terms of its presentation

Yeah, you took other peoples ideas that had already been debunked and put them in a list for all my intelligent pals on TTA to debunk again. You have unusual hobbies.

Quote:Evolution didn't just pop into existence all by itself.

No parture...it went bang not pop. We've been through this.

Quote:find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs for their eyewitness testimony seeing Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

No I don't....it's a story. A fabricated story that borrows heavily from Mithras and Osiris. It kind of had to in order to gain credibility with the target audience.

So...all these dudes on youtube told you that you were wrong, you've been lambasted on this forum in about 50 different ways...is that not enough for a tiny grain of doubt to enter the Troy consiousness?
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