The New Age Atheist
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08-12-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 06:48 AM)Gordon Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 04:45 AM)bemore Wrote:  You said in a post Ed that there is a lot of evidence for re-incarnation. Care to post some of it?

If I thought it would make any difference I would, but since it wouldn't, you can search for it yourself just as I did.

Having said that, I do recommend the book "Life before Life" by Dr. Jim Tucker. Here's the Amazon link. It's a good book to start off your search for the evidence. Yes

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Before-Childr...efore+life

I am of the disagreement that consciousness creates the universe. I think that notion has been held from the "double split experiment" however from what I can remember people have done the experiment with different results with more precise equipment (maybe somebody who is more knowledgeable in the world of QM can quote me on that)

I like to look at what information comes from the Nour Foundation Within this is the AWARE study that is trying its best to produce scientific methods that can be re-produced to see if their is any possible validity to "out of body experiences" and what people report experiencing when they die.

What is interesting to hear is in a interview with Jim.B.Tucker (the guy who wrote the book you recommended) which can be found here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLKT5UsKoqM

... is he was asked about heaven and hell. Dr Sam Parnia (the person heading the AWARE study) has interviewed people who have had these experiences and it would appear that if you die a "traumatic" death (like being murdered, taking your own life etc) then the afterlife you experience is not nice, however if you die "peacefully" then people experience some more pleasant. So you can experience "hell" even after living a good life if you yourself suffer a traumatic death.

Which leads me to the part of the video Where Jim is asked about his thoughts/feelings towards causation... the closest he can come to explaining is something he relates to Karma. Doing good and doing bad (lol)

As a Nihlist I cannot comprehend the notions of good and bad and would like to hear your views Gordon on what can be classed as "good or bad" and which religion/worldview you take them from.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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08-12-2013, 10:45 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(07-12-2013 01:48 AM)Gordon Wrote:  I love this. In the past (like ten years ago), no self-respecting atheist would have been anything other than a secular materialist. Now you all can believe in ghosts. Rolleyes

I am not laughing. Or at least I'm not saying I don't believe in ghosts; I'm just flabbergasted that atheism is already beginning to collapse under its own weight--just like the Christian Church.

I blame the modern world. We have discovered too much strange Censored to go on acting like everything is deterministic material physics.

Well, hell, for all I know, maybe I'm an atheist, too. I mean, what is the god you don't believe in? I may not believe in him either. Blink

(Snip)

So, as you can imagine, I'm thrilled to hear you can be an atheist and believe in ghosts. Shocking

I don't really understand how atheism can collapse? It is not a religion or even an organization.

a·the·ism
ˈāTHēˌizəm/
noun
1.
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

There is no set of beliefs that can collapse. The only thing that links atheists with other atheists is the rejection of the existence of deities. You can be atheist and believe in absolutely anything except for deities. This has always been true. What you're seeing now is that more and more people are realizing that religion is fraud and science is the real truth. A result is that there is much more variety among atheists. There are as many flavors of people who don't believe in god as there are of people who don't believe in Santa. Go figure.
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08-12-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
Atheism in relation to individuals is not considered a form of religion. Government does consider atheism as a religion - at least here in Canada, but that's all to do with tax exemptions and the like - just in case you want to build an atheist church or something of the like. Nifty, right?

Sink your teeth into that, Gordie! [Image: JVgjf8l.gif]

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08-12-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
For yea, I say unto thee, and I announce to you,
my woo, is forsooth, far better than his woo.
How is it, that this I knew,
for really there is an accounting, of all this woo.
For you see, it's really the woo-meister who,
in cooking, creates and dumps the woo stew.
So ask ye not, if it be a right thing, to do,
for woo, is woo, and soon will come the "shoo".
Bowing

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-12-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 08:23 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 06:48 AM)Gordon Wrote:  If I thought it would make any difference I would, but since it wouldn't, you can search for it yourself just as I did.

Having said that, I do recommend the book "Life before Life" by Dr. Jim Tucker. Here's the Amazon link. It's a good book to start off your search for the evidence. Yes

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Before-Childr...efore+life

You are a bitter disappointment, I guess with people talking about you so much I expected too much from you.
But you come up with this lame ass stupid thread, a pile of unsupported claims , anecdotes , and with no debating skills. Dodgy

You made me miss I&I Weeping

His better days are far behind him.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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08-12-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 08:23 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  You are a bitter disappointment, I guess with people talking about you so much I expected too much from you.

Ah, now that really hurts. I wanted so much to be so much in your eyes. [Image: 27.gif]

Quote:But you come up with this lame ass stupid thread, a pile of unsupported claims , anecdotes , and with no debating skills. Dodgy

You made me miss I&I Weeping

How can there be a debate? Chas asked me to define God; I did. Haven't heard from him. Why don't you start a sentence with: "There can be no god, because..." and we can go from there. If you can't do that, then you're not capable of debate, are you? Hobo
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08-12-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 08:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  That's how you justify being an asshole - you project your flaws on everyone else.

You think you're a pretty good person, don't you?
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08-12-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 02:25 PM)Gordon Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 08:23 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  You are a bitter disappointment, I guess with people talking about you so much I expected too much from you.

Ah, now that really hurts. I wanted so much to be so much in your eyes. [Image: 27.gif]

Don't beat yourself about it, it's not you , it's me.

Quote:How can there be a debate? Chas asked me to define God; I did. Haven't heard from him. Why don't you start a sentence with: "There can be no god, because..." and we can go from there. If you can't do that, then you're not capable of debate, are you? Hobo

Who are you talking to? How can I start a sentence with "There can be no god, because..." when I don't hold that position, and I think that you will rarely find an atheist with that opinion.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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08-12-2013, 02:42 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 10:24 AM)Fat Mac Wrote:  You're just restating the very thing that I'm not understanding.

I fail to see how believing in God and believing in ghosts and/or some sort of form of afterlife are related. Yes, I understand that they both fall under the "supernatural" category, but why must they be related beyond that?

You're not addressing me, but I wanted to take a stab at this:

I see what you are saying. For instance, dark matter exists, but we don't know what it is or how to understand its presence. Telepathy has been proven scientifically, but we don't know what it is, or how it is the mind could work that way (same with precognition). The placebo effect is a scientific fact, but we don't have any idea how it could be.

There are strange things in this universe. The universe could simply have within it spiritual entities, and we just don't understand how it could be. We don't even understand how gravity can be or how subatomic particles can paradoxically behave as two different things at the same time (wave and particle).

So, there could be spirits without a God. The problem is the cosmological argument. It's a hard argument to side step when you're talking about the physical world, it becomes ten times harder to get around when you're talking about the spiritual world.

It says that there had to be a first cause or nothing would ever be caused, and that cause, itself, must be uncaused. The spirit world, and the paranormal phenomena, don't seem to have any physical basis, and yet they have to do with consciousness and mind. There's only two possibilities: the mind always existed, or the mind was created. If it always existed, that fits our definition of God (an eternal mind), if it was created, then it seems logical that a mind would have had to create it; that creator being what we typically think of as fitting the description of God.

So, an atheist can believe in spirits and deny the existence of God, but it's not a logical platform. It's not rational. It doesn't equate or add up, so to speak.


Quote:Hypothetically speaking, let's say I think all the religions we know are wrong, so I'm an atheist. But I research heavily into ghosts and decide there's enough evidence through EVPs and all of that to convince me that ghosts exist. Hell, maybe i even had an experience with them myself, who knows. But just because I don't think Yahweh, Allah, or Zeus exist does not stop be from being convinced by what I think to be hard evidence, to also believe that ghosts are real.

The concept may pose as ridiculous for you, but I see no reason why it wouldn't be conceivable. In your mind, you put all these concepts in one basket and you say it's preposterous that you could only take one thing out of that basket. Which I fully understand. But it's really personal opinion, and I don't think it's that preposterous.

Here you make a good point. Only I think you're using a different classification of "atheism." And this is my question to all:

Is an atheist someone who rejects any notion of God, or is an atheist someone who rejects the known religious notions of God?
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08-12-2013, 02:47 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 01:14 AM)Gordon Wrote:  
(07-12-2013 05:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  And I don't believe any definition of any god I have aver heard, so define away.

God as a mind that has always existed and can never not exist.

And your evidence of this is what? I reject your definition as incoherent.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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