The New Age Atheist
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08-12-2013, 10:49 PM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 06:24 PM)Gordon Wrote:  i define god as a mind which has always existed. it was neither created nor is it possible for it to ever end.

And that idea doesn't utterly perplex you?

Quote:can an atheist believe in this type of mind?

But what does the acceptance of such an idea gain us? An always existing disembodied mind is more mystifying than the problem of the ultimate origin of the universe. I'm not saying that the issue of ultimate origin isn't perplexing but I don't feel less perplexed when I attribute the physical universee to an eternal disembodied mind.

Metaphysical naturalism isn't a perfect worldview--honest atheists will admit that. But one of its virtues is that it is oriented towards genuine explanations and if they are unavailable the lacunae are marked out.
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09-12-2013, 01:13 AM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2013 01:16 AM by Gordon.)
RE: The New Age Atheist
(08-12-2013 06:28 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 06:24 PM)Gordon Wrote:  i define god as a mind which has always existed. it was neither created nor is it possible for it to ever end.

can an atheist believe in this type of mind?

Insofar as it's possible for you to express that definition, sure.

Why would anyone believe that?

Because mind is all around us. Everyone has an experience of it. But there is 0 evidence it comes from the brain. In fact, the evidence is to the contrary.

(08-12-2013 06:30 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Can you produce some (evidence) ?

I have a mind that has seen future events before they occurred. I have had five serious episodes of precognition in my life, which I have documented. I have read countless other reports by other people. Animal and human telepathy is scientifically proven and anyone can do the repeatable experiments. No one seriously doubts that telepathy exists, even though they can't say why. Creatures without neurological systems appear to demonstrate will (paramecium and jellyfish). None of this is possible with a brain. The universe shows evidence of order rather than chaos (one example is our communication and the computers we are using to accomplish it).

That's all quite a bit of evidence.

(08-12-2013 07:00 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I wrote and defended my Bachelor's thesis in praise of American Atheism

You must come from a different country with a different educational system because in the U.S., anyway, you don't write a "bachelor's thesis." That's what you do for a master's degree, and you write a dissertation for a doctorate degree.

(08-12-2013 07:01 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  So with the very first response, I both answered the question, and tried to avoid this waste of time redefining of atheism...

And yet, here we are, page 13..
Dodgy

Yeah, the audacity of people wanting to share "their" opinions after you've shared yours. How dare they? Ohmy

(08-12-2013 09:18 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But what does the acceptance of such an idea gain us? An always existing disembodied mind is more mystifying than the problem of the ultimate origin of the universe. I'm not saying that the issue of ultimate origin isn't perplexing but I don't feel less perplexed when I attribute the physical universee to an eternal disembodied mind.

And yet, it exists, doesn't it? We have no explanation for mind. There isn't even a theory of mind that holds any water. You fire up a brain, and you see how it's all buzzing around and yet none of that gives us a clue as to why we "perceive" it buzzing around.

Mind may seem preplexing, but it may simply be what is. In fact it may require no explanation at all. It may be the only thing that doesn't require an explanation. An eternal mind that has always been and never will not be, that is essentially creating all of the universe as a kind of dream, may simply be the way mind works.

If we try to explain it, "we" being part of that mind, all we are doing is trying to explain ourself to ourself.

Why am I the only mind that exists?

Because I'm the only mind that exists.

Why do I envision gravity and matter in such a way that liquid forms into spherical shapes?

Because I envision gravity and matter in such a way that it turns liquids into spherical shapes.


Thus we find that the mind, being one thing that has always been, is where the end of explanation is. Everything else can be explained until you get to the mind that originally thought it up. Then there is no explanation. There can't be.

Of course, such a mind is not God. By god, almost everyone means an "other" being that is great and powerful. If what I said above is true, there is no God. If there is, that being is just an under-being of the mind, and that's not what we think of as God. If there is a mind, and the mind created a modality, that created the universe and all the spirits of that universe, that modality is not really God. It's just a dream character of the mind, just like you and me.

I pray to God. But I know what is really going on. I am communing with my Higher Self. Chances are I'm only talking to my super-being, the being that exists on my spiritual plane that I really am. The being that has lived many lifetimes in many incarnations, "Gordon" being only one of many of those incarnations.

That's all I really wanted to say in this thread. Sleepy
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09-12-2013, 02:24 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(09-12-2013 01:13 AM)Gordon Wrote:  In fact, the evidence is to the contrary.

Then present it.

(09-12-2013 01:13 AM)Gordon Wrote:  Creatures without neurological systems appear to demonstrate will (paramecium and jellyfish).

No they don''t. It's called reflexive movement. It has nothing to do with "will". You have NO training in Neuro-science. You are incompetent to say anything about the subject. Commenting about where someone is from is not a refutation of anything.
There is no mind without a functioning brain and you can provide not one example of one. Can I apply to the woo-woo seminary ? LMFAO.

(09-12-2013 01:13 AM)Gordon Wrote:  That's all I really wanted to say in this thread. Sleepy

Really ? You said something ? Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-12-2013, 02:47 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(09-12-2013 01:13 AM)Gordon Wrote:  
(08-12-2013 06:30 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Can you produce some (evidence) ?
Quote:I have a mind that has seen future events before they occurred. I have had five serious episodes of precognition in my life, which I have documented.
Let's see it.
Quote:I have read countless other reports by other people.
I've read Harry Potter too. But I bet you can't produce a singe peer reviewed scientific paper that confirms telepathy. Can you?
Quote: Animal and human telepathy is scientifically proven and anyone can do the repeatable experiments.
Really? Let's do it. What's the number I am thinking of right now?
Quote: No one seriously doubts that telepathy exists, even though they can't say why.
This guy does.
James Randi
Did anybody win the million, I know people tried.
Quote:Creatures without neurological systems appear to demonstrate will (paramecium and jellyfish). None of this is possible with a brain.
No. They don't have a brain, but they do have simple nervous systems , which is enough.
Quote:The universe shows evidence of order rather than chaos (one example is our communication and the computers we are using to accomplish it).
No. Just no.



And even if everything you said is true , that wouldn't begin to prove existence of god as you defined it.
Telepathy if it exists, can be a natural function of the brain without the need of god of any kind.

You have a lot of work ahead of you. First you need to scientifically prove that telepathy is real ( which, despite your belief, nobody managed to do so far ) , and then you need to prove that is not possible without a god as you defined it.

Good luck.

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09-12-2013, 03:29 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(09-12-2013 02:47 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(09-12-2013 01:13 AM)Gordon Wrote:  
Quote:I have a mind that has seen future events before they occurred. I have had five serious episodes of precognition in my life, which I have documented.
Let's see it.
Quote:I have read countless other reports by other people.
I've read Harry Potter too. But I bet you can't produce a singe peer reviewed scientific paper that confirms telepathy. Can you?
Quote: Animal and human telepathy is scientifically proven and anyone can do the repeatable experiments.
Really? Let's do it. What's the number I am thinking of right now?
Quote: No one seriously doubts that telepathy exists, even though they can't say why.
[quote]And even if everything you said is true , that wouldn't begin to prove existence of god as you defined it.

You're right. If what I said is true it necessitates the kind of God I described, there is no way to "prove" that kind of god. There's not much point in even calling it god.

Quote:Telepathy if it exists, can be a natural function of the brain without the need of god of any kind.

No. If my brain generates thoughts, there's no realistic way, physically speaking, I could transmit those thoughts across vast distances. If that were the case, then telepathy would be like a physical sense and we'd use it all the time, like eyesight. You're giving the brain abilites no one believes it has. No one. You're not being intellectually honest.

You have a lot of work ahead of you. First you need to scientifically prove that telepathy is real ( which, despite your belief, nobody managed to do so far )

Yep. Telepathy has been demonstrated repeatedly in scientific experiments with animals and humans. It's the most comon psi phenomenon. Precognition being the next most common.

I'm not digging up the papers, books and links for you, because we both know you have no interest in that. But there is one book you should read; make it a Christmas gift to yourself.

[Image: 517mQocR1mL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-stic..._OU01_.jpg]

http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-That-Their-Ow...oming+home

Quote:And then you need to prove that is not possible without a god as you defined it.

Good luck.

If precognition is true, and I personally know it is, there's no way the brain can do that; therefore, my mind cannot be a product of my brian. If it's not, then what is it a product of? It could only be the product of a greater mind. In fact, it would have to be the same substance, and that's what I call God.
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09-12-2013, 03:46 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
If you want to see what I said above, you have to expand it, because I kind of messed up the quote tags.
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09-12-2013, 06:06 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
The only one who routinely reads my mind is my German Shepherd. That dog is uncanny. He will get up when I am thinking of getting up, go to the kitchen when I am thinking of getting more coffee, go to the door when I am thinking of going for a walk, stop and look at me when I am thinking of taking a different route, etc.

None of these are repeat actions, there is no rhyme or reason as to when I may think these things.

Actually, he is a master at reading body language.

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09-12-2013, 08:16 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
Rupert Sheldrake - you mean the man who has gotten so much rebuttal from the skeptics community? You mean the man who claims that animals have something called "morphic resonance" (species memory mumbo jumbo) that when tested, ultimately failed?

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09-12-2013, 08:40 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
(09-12-2013 08:16 AM)cheapthrillseaker Wrote:  Rupert Sheldrake - you mean the man who has gotten so much rebuttal from the skeptics community? You mean the man who claims that animals have something called "morphic resonance" (species memory mumbo jumbo) that when tested, ultimately failed?

Precognition. This..coming from the guy who a year ago said he was temporarily leaving to deal with the HOARDS of people who who be flooding into his now utterly defunct First Veridican Church. Yeah. That guy. Heh heh. Tongue I wonder if Psycho-seminiary, (say THAT with a lisp), has a class on prophesy ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-12-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: The New Age Atheist
I don't really know any Christians who would consider the Bible a book that is merely a book. To them it is the word of their god, and therefor infallible. However, they all love to cherry-pick the nice parts and leave out the nasty ones.

If you're having trouble with where you stand with your religious beliefs, I think the first question you should ask yourself is "Is it imperative that I believe in the existence of a god? Does the thought of an almighty creator not existing bother me greatly?"

If such a belief is not absolutely imperative to you, then I suggest maybe taking a look at Buddhism. There is a wealth of great moral values in Buddhism, and it encourages people to question things and gain knowledge. The Christian church has very much tried to keep people ignorance throughout history, because when people gain knowledge they start to question their religion. More educated people are far less likely to believe Biblical stories to be historically accurate, or turn a blind eye to the evil parts of the Bible. I do admit that if there were any kind of religion that I would follow, it would be Buddhism (even though I really don't think of it as a religion). There are certain things I don't agree with Buddhism on - like the existence of spirits and reincarnation - but there is still a wealth of positive aspects of it. If you are passionate about the idea that people have souls and like good moral lessons to live your life by, then I'd say Buddhism would fit in along your lines better.

Just my personal advice.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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