Poll: Who do you support in the 2012 US Presidential election?
Barack Obama - Democratic Party
Mitt Romney - Republican Party
Gary Johnson - Libertarian Party
Jill Stein - Green Party
Virgil Goode - Constitution Party
Andre Barnett - Reform Party USA
Tom Hoefling - America's Party
Rocky Anderson - Justice Party
Stewart Alexander - Socialist Party USA
Merlin Miller - American Third Position Party
Tom Stevens - Objectivist Party
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The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
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24-08-2012, 12:33 PM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(24-08-2012 11:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 10:44 AM)Jeff Wrote:  I'll be enthusiastically voting for Romney/Ryan.

Because you hate women, gays, and the middle class?

I thought he only hated god and baby Jesus...Huh

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24-08-2012, 05:39 PM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(24-08-2012 10:48 AM)Seasbury Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 10:44 AM)Jeff Wrote:  I'll be enthusiastically voting for Romney/Ryan.

Jeff - Just out of curiosity, why?

Just interested in the rationale/calculus used.

It's not apparent to me why an atheist or homosexual would ever consider voting for a party that hates them.

And I say this as a registered republican...nearly 30 years running...

(24-08-2012 10:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  Because you hate women, gays, and the middle class?

We don't get to vote for a hundred little issues - we have to vote for one person representing one platform. My approach to voting is to pick the one big issue that I think is of utmost importance and obtainable in that election cycle and base my vote on that. Last time I voted for Obama because he's black. The only big picture issue I saw either Obama or McCain achieving was having a first black president, and obviously McCain wasn't the man for that. I saw Obama as an effite boob with no experience doing anything but talking. My opinion hasn't changed, but at least we've had a first black president, which I hope will be an inspiration to black people in this country.

In the upcoming election I think the US economy is the only issue. A strong economy solves a million smaller problems. A weak economy causes a million smaller problems.

Romney is a very competent and smart executive. He's proven his ability to get things done in three different arenas - in the private sector at Boston Consulting Group, Bain (where you have to be smart as fuck to get in, let alone be the CEO) and Bain Capital, in the non-governmental sector (running the 2002 winter olympics) and in government (Governor of Massachusetts). Those are three roles where you have to get people to follow you, a quality that Obama does not possess. Leaders need followers to get anything done.

Yes it would be fun to just wave aside all that competence and say "but he's a mormon" and that's fine when we're not in deep shit, but I hate to say it, we're in deep shit. We need to get this country heading in the right direction, and that means our business leaders need to confident and gung-ho that they're doing business in the right place.

I'll give you an example of this on a small scale. I have a business with 3 locations. I've been vacillating about expanding (doubling) the size of one of my locations for over a year. If I make the wrong call it could ruin me financially, end about 20 employees, so obviously I need to be careful. My customers have been on me for a long time to expand, but the economic situation has been uncertain, so I've been sitting on the sideline, waiting and watching. But I just signed the new lease to expand. I'm scared out of my mind but the demand for it has just gotten too strong. I'm also betting that Romney will win and the impact will be palpable. So for the last two weeks I've been buying stuff like crazy - flooring, carpeting, paint, fixtures, etc. to get the expansion completed. That's all stuff that drives the businesses of my suppliers. I'll be hiring a few more people. That's more jobs. Now multiply this by ten million small businesses across the country. I could and maybe should have done it a year ago, but the impact of uncertainty is terrible on the economy.

I'll tell you this also - when Obama said of business owners "You didn't build that" he cemented his own loss. For EVERY business owner out there, that is the single most offensive thing you could ever say. You didn't see business owners coming out en masse to scream about the offense, because it's so offensive to the core, that the reaction is more like "we'll see who built what when the election comes."

The issues you cite like gays (which I assume is a proxy for gay marriage), or women (which I assume is a proxy for abortion) are to me, and I mean no offense, not the important issues of a presidential elections. First off I reject the idea that abortion needs to be the central issue of every election. Second it's more of a state issue. As for gays, I feel strongly about protecting gays but I see gay marriage as primarily a state issue as well.

Both candidates say they believe in god. That they use different incantations from different books of spells is meaningless to me. If one of them was an "out" atheist that might be my single biggest issue and drive my vote, but until/unless that happens, their religion is irrelevant to my vote.

But, on the religious issue, I see a difference that few of you may agree with. IF I were a believer, I would take the issue seriously. Romney does - he's been a leader in his church, he tithes (think of it, give 10% of your after tax income to the church every year). Obama is a believer of convenience. I doubt he really believes, but probably just thinks it helps him with a voter bloc. In any case, it speaks to character between the two men, and it makes me trust Romney, not Obama.

I've also had cause to get to know Mormons very well, and I hate to generalize, but they are good people. Yes, it's cultish - they tend to only associate with each other - but they take their shit seriously, and I like serious people. That's the reason I tend to like immigrants more than 2nd or 3rd gen americans - they're more serious. But I digress.

A lot of you guys hate big business, and so you see Romney as the devil incarnate. I wish you could back up to a time when there was no oil to heat your home so I could watch you burn all the wood and then start to freeze to death. You'd be begging someone to go invest their money to hunt for oil and deliver it to you, and you'd be happy to see them profit from it. But you've grown up all cushy with your homes heated and you can't see how much you take for granted. Fuck you for your stupidity.

And while we're at it - I love Paul Ryan. This guy is trying to fix our budget at a time when the PRESIDENT OF THE US HAS NOT PRODUCED HIS OWN BUDGET. How fucked up is that? Of course there are going to be things in the Ryan budget that you don't like. How do you think you get out of a situation where you are over-spending?

Anyway, that's what drives my vote.
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24-08-2012, 07:48 PM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
Jeff,

I can't say anything other than to compliment you on a well developed and thoughtful response. Thanks for taking the time to clearly explain your rationale.

My only quibble with what you wrote up was the context of the "you didn't build that" statement. Not that it is a huge deal, but you should know he was referring specifically to infrastructure and not the businesses people create.

It's not so much the candidates themselves that concern me. On an individual level, I'm actually in agreement with you - all things being equal, I think Romney would be a better executive than Obama. But things are not equal - candidates are not just leaders but subservient to party platforms.

I'm not making an argument to sway your opinion - you are clearly voting, or voicing your support, with your interests in mind - and that's to be commended! I always have trouble with people that vote against their interests based on irrational decision-making, which is clearly not in play.

I have buddies that work on Wall Street and they are actually hoping Obama wins - not because they love him - by any stretch! They feel that with a Romney election will actually create another 12 months of continued uncertainty while getting a new team in place - classic case of stick with the devil you know...

My concern, more than anything else, is not THIS election, it's the long term trajectory we're on. We are essentially a 50-50 nation - regardless of who wins, a full half the country will hate their leader and the party they represent. That doesn't bode well for long term prospects...

Anyway, again, I admire your position, at least the articulation of it, even if I'm not in full agreement...I'm not a fan of the current administration, but I do feel the Republican party in general is playing a scorched earth political game that truly cares for nothing more than winning - regardless of who is destroyed in the process and it does not bode well for the country long term - at might sound like hyperbole, but it truly does scare the bejesus out of me.

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24-08-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(24-08-2012 07:48 PM)Seasbury Wrote:  I can't say anything other than to compliment you on a well developed and thoughtful response. Thanks for taking the time to clearly explain your rationale.

You're welcome. Thanks for reading it, sorry for the length.

(24-08-2012 07:48 PM)Seasbury Wrote:  My only quibble with what you wrote up was the context of the "you didn't build that" statement. Not that it is a huge deal, but you should know he was referring specifically to infrastructure and not the businesses people create..

I know that's how they spun it, but I heard it as one of those rare moments of un-scripted truth, kind of like the Akin "legitimate rape" comment. I won't give either one of them a pass.

(24-08-2012 07:48 PM)Seasbury Wrote:  My concern, more than anything else, is not THIS election, it's the long term trajectory we're on. We are essentially a 50-50 nation - regardless of who wins, a full half the country will hate their leader and the party they represent. That doesn't bode well for long term prospects.....

Yes, I couldn't agree more. I had thought/hoped that Obama would be a uniter to some degree.

(24-08-2012 07:48 PM)Seasbury Wrote:  I'm not a fan of the current administration, but I do feel the Republican party in general is playing a scorched earth political game that truly cares for nothing more than winning - regardless of who is destroyed in the process and it does not bode well for the country long term - at might sound like hyperbole, but it truly does scare the bejesus out of me.

It doesn't feel quite like scorched earth to me but I understand your thinking. I blame it on the political strategy to align with the religous right, which often makes the Republicans end up sounding disturbingly close-minded.
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24-08-2012, 09:48 PM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
I understand your argument - I am a business owner, as well.

However, your understanding of the whole "You didn't build that" meme just drips with intentional, partisan misunderstanding. He didn't say that, Warren didn't say that, and if you listen to what they actually said you will hear that they didn't say that.

As far as Romney and Ryan, I find the threat to civil rights, science, education, separation of church and state from them outweighs any advantage they might have in experience. Economics is simply not more important than everything else.

Romney is either a believing Mormon, in which case he's very strange, or he's just another hypocrite. Ryan certainly seems to be hyper-Catholic, and therefore scary. If Obama is a social/political Christian, then he's a hypocrite, too. No worse.

Obama is not the incompetent the right portrays - the blame for the lack of progress falls squarely on a frozen Congress - frozen by the intransigence of the right due to their hatred of Obama.

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24-08-2012, 09:54 PM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(24-08-2012 08:24 PM)Jeff Wrote:  I know that's how they spun it, but I heard it as one of those rare moments of un-scripted truth, kind of like the Akin "legitimate rape" comment. I won't give either one of them a pass.

I must be the only person in the world who will give Akin a pass on that phrase.

I'm sure he meant "really, actually raped" by that incredibly poorly worded phrase. Of course, the rest of his statement was, in fact, arrant nonsense and pretty offensive.

He was, after all, trying to think on his feet and incapable of doing so.

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24-08-2012, 10:38 PM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(24-08-2012 05:39 PM)Jeff Wrote:  But you've grown up all cushy with your homes heated and you can't see how much you take for granted. Fuck you for your stupidity.

Every time you make a post, I dislike you more than I did beforehand. I'm not sharing that information to be antagonistic. I'm sharing that information because the consistency of how fucked-up you are is almost awe-inspiring.

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25-08-2012, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2012 05:06 AM by Jeff.)
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(24-08-2012 09:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  However, your understanding of the whole "You didn't build that" meme just drips with intentional, partisan misunderstanding.

"If you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well it must be 'cause I'm just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something, there are a whole bunch of hard workin' people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that, when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.”

Chas, I think you have to be a pro-Obama partisan to read that "speech" and think that all that's being said is that your business doesn't operate in a vacuum, that government infrastructure is a necessary element. First off, who's arguing the opposite view on that? Did the president spend two paragraphs just stating the completely obvious? Is there anyone claiming that what they've accomplished was done without the use of things that came before? No. That's why the attempts at spin don't wash. It's clear what he really meant, unless you're so wrapped up in defending him that you just can't allow yourself to believe it. Now if you want to say that the last sentence (bolded) washes away everything, then you're welcome to your beliefs. My interpretation is that Obama realized he had gone way over the line in being candid about his own beliefs (ie If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.) and tried to tie it back up in his "we do it together" schtick.

And Chas, regarding your business, you didn't build that, somebody else made it happen.



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25-08-2012, 05:05 AM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(24-08-2012 10:38 PM)Red Celt Wrote:  Every time you make a post, I dislike you more than I did beforehand. I'm not sharing that information to be antagonistic. I'm sharing that information because the consistency of how fucked-up you are is almost awe-inspiring.

Red Celt, some day you're going to wake up, pull your head out of your ass, and we're going to have a good laugh about this together.
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25-08-2012, 11:12 AM
RE: The OFFICIAL TTA 2012 US Presidential Election Poll
(25-08-2012 04:53 AM)Jeff Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 09:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  However, your understanding of the whole "You didn't build that" meme just drips with intentional, partisan misunderstanding.

"If you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own. You didn't get there on your own. I'm always struck by people who think, well it must be 'cause I'm just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something, there are a whole bunch of hard workin' people out there. If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. The point is, is that, when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.”

Chas, I think you have to be a pro-Obama partisan to read that "speech" and think that all that's being said is that your business doesn't operate in a vacuum, that government infrastructure is a necessary element. First off, who's arguing the opposite view on that? Did the president spend two paragraphs just stating the completely obvious? Is there anyone claiming that what they've accomplished was done without the use of things that came before? No. That's why the attempts at spin don't wash. It's clear what he really meant, unless you're so wrapped up in defending him that you just can't allow yourself to believe it. Now if you want to say that the last sentence (bolded) washes away everything, then you're welcome to your beliefs. My interpretation is that Obama realized he had gone way over the line in being candid about his own beliefs (ie If you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.) and tried to tie it back up in his "we do it together" schtick.

And Chas, regarding your business, you didn't build that, somebody else made it happen.




I think you have it quite a bit backwards. It's a view of looking for it to be negative that brings out the idea he is claiming business owners didn't build something on their own. If that was his point, it wouldn't even make sense in the context of all his statement around.

If he meant you didn't build your business on your own, why would he be talking about teachers helping you along the way, the American system, and roads? He is talking about those things, because that's what he is talking about.

And your little argument was where are people saying this... Even if you think people aren't.. He says that part right in the beginning, that I underlined. The "I'm struck by people who say..." part is acknowledging there are people who believe that. It's the attack on those who argue that government stimulus doesn't help when it always has been used to keep jobs open and aid roads/bridges.

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