The Origins of the Universe
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13-01-2014, 07:10 PM
The Origins of the Universe
I am looking through the different theories about the origins of the universe and am wondering what theory people deem more logical. In your opinion is it more logical to believe in creation ex nihilo, a eternal universe, or eternal God? Why? I have never really heard any credible theories other then these three but if you have please share. Smile
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13-01-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
(13-01-2014 07:10 PM)RomanNose Wrote:  I am looking through the different theories about the origins of the universe and am wondering what theory people deem more logical. In your opinion is it more logical to believe in creation ex nihilo, a eternal universe, or eternal God? Why? I have never really heard any credible theories other then these three but if you have please share. Smile

We dont know... but its not a god... when u say god.. what exactly do u mean?
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13-01-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
I'm not sure what the term "logical" is supposed to mean in this context; please elaborate.

As for my personal beliefs, I have no problem admitting ignorance when it comes to the origin of our universe; I don't even know how I could, in theory, have any concrete knowledge about it.

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13-01-2014, 08:14 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
(13-01-2014 07:10 PM)RomanNose Wrote:  I am looking through the different theories about the origins of the universe and am wondering what theory people deem more logical. In your opinion is it more logical to believe in creation ex nihilo, a eternal universe, or eternal God? Why? I have never really heard any credible theories other then these three but if you have please share. Smile

Isn't "creation ex nihilo" the idea that the mythical "creator" created the universe "from nothing"? -- and which steadfastly and disingenuously refuses to provide any explanation (much less evidence) of how that "creator" is supposed to have come into being?

I would think that the most logical approach would be to admit that we don't know and that we don't have enough evidence to make a solid claim either way.

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13-01-2014, 08:17 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
Yeah, it's perfectly logical to say "I don't know". Not having a concrete answer doesn't prove that the Christian god exists. Of the Muslim one. Or the Norse Pantheon.
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13-01-2014, 08:43 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
(13-01-2014 07:10 PM)RomanNose Wrote:  I am looking through the different theories about the origins of the universe and am wondering what theory people deem more logical. In your opinion is it more logical to believe in creation ex nihilo, a eternal universe, or eternal God? Why? I have never really heard any credible theories other then these three but if you have please share. Smile

The whole god thing came around because people are afraid of things they don't understand. For the longest time people didn't know what thunderstorms, natural disasters, and shit like that were caused by, so they came up with the idea of gods to explain it, because to them it was much better than saying "I don't know!"

As time went on humans made up different gods as they moved from one part of the planet to another. At some point people realized this god crap could turn into a really huge business, and you could use it to control people like puppets! So then people started having organized religions. However, as technology progressed people started to fall away from religion. Religions have been trying to adjust from teaching holy books with ridiculous fairy tales and tons of immoral crap as being true and infallible. Some still do teach that, but they realize that if you take that route you have to brainwash them really good right from the start if you're going to have any chance in hell of having them believe in talking snakes and a man building a giant boat and putting two of every animal in the world on it while the entire planet floods as accurate historical events into adulthood. Most have started realizing that if they want to have any chance of staying around they need to start doing some serious cherry picking! So they only talk about the good stuff from their books and leave out all that nasty stuff. They also comfort themselves with the "God of the gaps" attitude, which is "Can't explain something? God did it!" Of course, those gaps get smaller and smaller, but hey, it's about all they have left.

Atheists simply go by proof. We don't know everything about the universe, but when we don't know something we simply say "We don't know that answer yet, but let's try to find it!" We don't make up anything we want and say it has credibility.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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13-01-2014, 09:27 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
(13-01-2014 07:10 PM)RomanNose Wrote:  I am looking through the different theories about the origins of the universe and am wondering what theory people deem more logical. In your opinion is it more logical to believe in creation ex nihilo, a eternal universe, or eternal God? Why? I have never really heard any credible theories other then these three but if you have please share. Smile

I'd buy into ex-nihilo or eternal, personally, but if you're looking for alternatives that I don't really believe in...

Multiple-pasts. It's a bit like multiple futures branching off from the present, only about, well, history. Different timelines may converge by becoming indistinguishable in the present. To sketch an illustration, in one history Catherine the Great actually carried on an affair with her prize stallion, and in another this rumor was started by political opponents. However, we may have arrived at our present state of affairs from either past, and so we may say that these two histories have merged into a single present. Therefore, BOTH could have happened in their own, separate pasts.

So you see, it could have been eternal, and ex-nihilo, and deus-ex-machina, each a few infinities of times over.
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13-01-2014, 09:40 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
(13-01-2014 09:27 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  I'd buy into ex-nihilo or eternal, personally, but if you're looking for alternatives that I don't really believe in...

Eh. The evidence for a temporally-finite universe is pretty damn compelling.

Now, if by "ex nihilo" one means nothing within the universe caused the universe, well; that's trivially so!

On the other hand, given enough time (or more precisely being outside-of-time-as-we-know-it) anything which is possible will happen. So if it's possible for there to be a universe, then there will be; we could hardly wonder about it otherwise.

(13-01-2014 09:27 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Multiple-pasts. It's a bit like multiple futures branching off from the present, only about, well, history. Different timelines may converge by becoming indistinguishable in the present. To sketch an illustration, in one history Catherine the Great actually carried on an affair with her prize stallion, and in another this rumor was started by political opponents. However, we may have arrived at our present state of affairs from either past, and so we may say that these two histories have merged into a single present. Therefore, BOTH could have happened in their own, separate pasts.

Well, now you're just channeling Pratchett.
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13-01-2014, 10:00 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
I dont know.

But I dont pretend to know, which is what alot of morons do.

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13-01-2014, 10:51 PM
RE: The Origins of the Universe
(13-01-2014 09:40 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 09:27 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  I'd buy into ex-nihilo or eternal, personally, but if you're looking for alternatives that I don't really believe in...
On the other hand, given enough time (or more precisely being outside-of-time-as-we-know-it) anything which is possible will happen. So if it's possible for there to be a universe, then there will be; we could hardly wonder about it otherwise.

... hrrrm. I suppose if we can dictate that "enough" time allows for "an order of infinity higher than the probability space", then yes.

Whooo! Beth-two time!

And I'll have you know that I am coincidentally and independently reproducing Pratchett, thank you very much. (Though really, if we're positing multiple-futures in half the time travel fic out there, why should multiple-pasts be more crazy?)
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