The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
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08-06-2014, 09:15 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
Quote:"if an arrow is sticking out of your side, he famously said, don’t argue about where it came from or who made it; just pull it out."

It would also do one well to pursue the origin of the arrow in order to avoid it in the future.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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09-06-2014, 02:17 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2014 02:23 AM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
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09-06-2014, 02:33 AM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(08-06-2014 07:04 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  I'm going to analyze this from a scientific viewpoint.

Does this then mean that you are open to new scientific understanding about how emotion works in the brain?


(08-06-2014 07:04 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  The more pleasure you have and the less stress you have in life, the stronger the pleasure circuits in your brain will be and the weaker the stress circuit will be.

Please define what you mean a circuit being stronger or weaker. Your understanding of the process is flawed because you are not taking into account two things. First the brain habituates, so if we were to stick some electrodes into your pleasure circuits and activate them enough to pleasure you all the time without burning out your cells then eventually those neurons would habituate. We can see the equivalent happening with narcotic drugs.

Secondly you aren't taking into account the fact that the brain also uses neurochemicals such as neuromodulators. These modulate the activity of neural circuits over a longer time period before being gradually taken up again. Even neurotransmitters that are confined within the synaptic cleft act in the same way, albeit at most are only partially responsible for a single spike from a neuron. Drugs such as anti-depressants or narcotics work by either encouraging the release of these neurochemicals or inhibiting the re-uptake of them.

This is fundamental to how neural networks function which is why I personally dislike the term 'circuits'. It's not all about how neurons are wired up because that changes over time with synaptic drift and synaptic 'weights' that strengthen or weaken the effect that a pre-synaptic neuron will have on a post-synaptic neuron.


(08-06-2014 07:04 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Since obviously it's a scientific fact that pleasure overcomes stress and the more pleasure you have, the more you will be able to overcome stress.

This is not a scientific fact. Pleasure and stress are caused by different areas of the brain. There are also different types of pleasure and different types of stress. I love paragliding but it can terrify me. Some people like sado-masochism for the endorphin release and eventually start liking the pain despite it being a stressor. Lots of people enjoy being scared by fair ground rides or movies. Many people enjoy stressful jobs that also give them lots of job satisfaction.

What is of utmost importance is that pleasure and stress is balanced. If you don't need to work for your pleasure then life is unfulfilling and the pleasure is meaningless. Most of us are aware of what it's like when you have too much stress in your life without any reward.


(08-06-2014 07:04 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Which is why I say here that I am at a great disadvantage being an atheist since my mind is wired to achieve the best life of pleasure and stress coping through belief in religion.

People have predispositions or tendencies, but brains aren't specifically wired towards a belief in religion. There may be a tendency towards something that religion offers but that does not mean to say that religion is the only means by which it can be achieved.

tl;dr the brain habituates, is plastic, you need to achieve a balance between pleasure and stress.
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09-06-2014, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2014 08:19 AM by Mozart Link.)
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(09-06-2014 02:17 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  People who don't try to hide from stressors but actually engage them.....generally resolve them and no longer have the stress or the stressor. Again by utilizing delusions of grandeur you address the stress but not the stress causing agent.
If, for example, knowing that there is no God and no afterlife is your stressor because you feel that it makes your life inferior and hopeless and that you deserve these things, then it would be of benefit to believe in religion and there would be no benefit whatsoever in facing the stressor itself (since this is something mental and not an actual situation that needs to be addressed such as your example of being on fire, and there would be no difference in facing this stressor as opposed to using delusion to escape this stressor because, again, both of these situations are the same in the sense that they both use a positive outlook in combating this stressor. One may be an escape while the other is facing the problem, but they are both the same in the sense that they ease and perhaps rid of the stress). Therefore, in this case, it would be good to just eliminate the stress itself through any positive perception and not have to face this source of stress. As for being poorly immunized to hardship because you are not facing stressors in life, I do not believe this to be the case because, for example, if you wish to have a good immune system to things such as the cold, what you would have to do is make sure you exercise and eat right and such (not keep on experiencing these ailments). Therefore, this would also be the case for this situation as well because if you wish to be immune to stress, then you would make sure you experience all the pleasure you can and experience as less stress as possible.

(09-06-2014 02:17 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Your view does not resolve stressors in this life it ignores them, and pretends they are not there while our view actually resolve them because it's an imperative that we do so. It's not about making the best out of our only life it's about the knowledge that we have the responsibility to leave this place better then we found it and that takes combating the actual issues, not pretending they don't exist. Hunger in the world won't be solved by fantasizing everyone owns a steak or is "superior to the concept of a world with hunger".
We try to build a better world for our fellow man and you just selfishly and arrogantly pretend you already exist in one.
You say that it's about this knowledge, but if you had the choice, would you be a person who is a genius and has absolutely no pleasure in life (as in literally no pleasure center at all), or would you be someone who is retarded and has all the pleasure in the world? I doubt any human being would choose the first option which obviously says that pleasure is the most important thing above having knowledge because if we just had knowledge without emotions, we would be nothing more than logical machines. And if you were to somehow think that having a balance of pleasure and knowledge is better than having all the pleasure in the world with no knowledge, the fact of the matter is that based on the argument I just made, pleasure is still the most important thing than any amount of knowledge no matter how you try to justify otherwise. Knowledge may be useful in helping others, but going out of your way in helping others is something you are free to do--you are not expected to do so and a way of life in helping others is not better than a way of life in experiencing personal pleasure and not going out of your way and helping others because to think so is a moral, and morals are not logic (fact), they are false and irrational. Therefore, you can experience all the pleasure you want without going out of your way in helping others and that would not make your attitude bad at all. In the case of you wanting to help others though, just simply recognizing the reality of the situation of those who need help would be necessary. But as for not recognizing the reality of the situation of there being no God and no afterlife, it would be unnecessary to recognize the reality of that situation as there is no need.

(08-06-2014 08:08 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 06:03 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  We are not meant to live a life of perfect joy and freedom and are designed to practically be slaves of our own negative emotional responses to life's struggles.

According to creationists, a god designed it that way. If you have issues with that, then maybe you ought to take that up with that invisible man in the sky. I, on the other hand, feel no need to convince myself that a deity exists in order to comfort myself and justify my existence. I accept life for what it is. I'm only here for a short time and I want to enjoy it as much as possible, and live it the way I want. I accept the fact that I'm nothing special in the scheme of the universe. The universe was here long before our planet, and it will be here long after. One day, the sun will explode and blow our planet to bits...and the rest of the universe will still go on. It doesn't rely on us for anything. People need to just get over the fact that we're not special.

If you're looking for something focused on ridding yourself of negatives, then may I suggest Buddhism? You seem to insist on believing in the existence of deities and the supernatural though, so that wouldn't work.
No, we are the ones who are special and this universe is what's not special only in the sense that it has given us no grand special purpose for us. We already deem ourselves special in the sense that we experience love and such. Therefore, since we are obviously already special, we should be living in a universe that "views" us as special by giving us things that a universe that "views" us as special would give us such as a life of perfection with immortality.

(09-06-2014 02:33 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  This is not a scientific fact. Pleasure and stress are caused by different areas of the brain. There are also different types of pleasure and different types of stress. I love paragliding but it can terrify me. Some people like sado-masochism for the endorphin release and eventually start liking the pain despite it being a stressor. Lots of people enjoy being scared by fair ground rides or movies. Many people enjoy stressful jobs that also give them lots of job satisfaction.
But in the case of depression, it is a scientific fact that pleasure combats it. The more positive outlook you have on life, the more you will be able to reduce and even overcome as well as prevent depression.

(09-06-2014 02:33 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  What is of utmost importance is that pleasure and stress is balanced. If you don't need to work for your pleasure then life is unfulfilling and the pleasure is meaningless. Most of us are aware of what it's like when you have too much stress in your life without any reward.
It all depends on the person. Many people (such as myself) would find that a life of perfect pleasure with no struggles is a completely fulfilling life and that these struggles are pointless and that no positive value whatsoever can be deemed from them.

(09-06-2014 02:33 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  tl;dr the brain habituates, is plastic, you need to achieve a balance between pleasure and stress.
I am aware that if you have too much pleasure in life, there is something known as "tolerance" where the brain gets used to the pleasure-giving chemicals and that, as a result, the pleasure will eventually fade. So to solve that problem, you would simply just have to ease up on the things giving you pleasure in life. You don't need stress in order to accomplish this.
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09-06-2014, 08:22 AM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
I should not be surprised that you said absolutely nothing new, you didn't even really reword things this time. You used the exact same fallacies here as you have for two threads, you ignore the majority of the criticisms, miss the point entirely, don't meet my challenge, and just regurgitate the same talking points.

I'm calling troll on you. What you write is too stupid to be genuine and I don't believe your an atheist for one damn second.

For the third or forth time now : Show me a mental health professional that thinks a tendency towards willful self delusion creates a more mentally stable and healthy individual that is better equipped to deal with future challenges.
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09-06-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(09-06-2014 08:22 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I should not be surprised that you said absolutely nothing new, you didn't even really reword things this time. You used the exact same fallacies here as you have for two threads, you ignore the majority of the criticisms, miss the point entirely, don't meet my challenge, and just regurgitate the same talking points.

I'm calling troll on you. What you write is too stupid to be genuine and I don't believe your an atheist for one damn second.

For the third or forth time now : Show me a mental health professional that thinks a tendency towards willful self delusion creates a more mentally stable and healthy individual that is better equipped to deal with future challenges.
I'm an atheist with the mentality of a religious person who seeks self-enlightenment. As for my reasonings, even though I have no actual evidence or proof of what you just stated in bolded words, I still have reason to believe what I'm saying because I believe what I'm saying is logical and true. Even though I have sort of basically said the same things, I have in fact refuted your reasonings with logical reasonings of my own in my previous post I just made. And unless you can still somehow come up with reasonings of your own that you perceive as logical and true, then I will still believe what I'm saying to be logical and true.
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09-06-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(09-06-2014 08:31 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  I'm an atheist with the mentality of a religious person who seeks self-enlightenment. As for my reasonings, even though I have no actual evidence or proof of what you just stated in bolded words, I still have reason to believe what I'm saying because I believe what I'm saying is logical and true. Even though I have sort of basically said the same things, I have in fact refuted your reasonings with logical reasonings of my own in my previous post I just made. And unless you can still somehow come up with reasonings of your own that you perceive as logical and true, then I will still believe what I'm saying to be logical and true.

Have you considered changing your mentality? Or even just understanding alternative ways of thinking?

I highly recommend it.
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09-06-2014, 09:06 AM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
Gobbledeegook.

I fail to understand why non specialists insist on speaking on specialized subjects.

It is obvious you do not understand the meaning of the word 'science'. Here is what the Oxford dictionary says:

The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment:the world of science and technology



(03-06-2014 06:03 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  The world of religion (there being a God and an afterlife in which you experience eternal joy and no suffering) might actually become a reality here on Earth through science. When science has achieved absolute perfection many years from now, we will live in a world where all illnesses have been cured, we no longer have problems and negative emotions, and we might even have an artificially created God that can look after us, or even an artificial afterlife.

Now evolution has designed our brains to experience negative emotions. However, this fight or flight response is primitive (which is the reason why so many people have depression and anxiety disorders) and needs to be updated through science. Therefore, instead of having brains that evolution designed for us, we can instead choose to have brains how we want them to be through science. Therefore, we can even choose to have brains that no longer experience negative emotion or even brains that have a much higher capacity to experience pleasure in life than that of any normal human brain.

But this life as it is now and how it designed us sort of says the message to us: "We are insignificant creatures only designed for survival and to forever die in the end with no grand purpose. We are not meant to live a life of perfect joy and freedom and are designed to practically be slaves of our own negative emotional responses to life's struggles. And if a problem does happen in your life, well you are just going to have to live with and deal with it. And that even goes for any negative emotional responses you might have to these problems."

Now most atheists would adopt and accept this message of life. But I find it utterly degrading and inferior to who I am as a person. We as human beings are superior and this message of life is what is inferior and deserves to be eradicated through science. And science says so because it is trying to solve problems and achieve a life that is perfect and such with no problems. We as human beings with our human desires to achieve a perfect life with joy and such are trying to eradicate this inhuman message of life through science.

Most atheists would think that we are insignificant and don't deserve a life free of struggles. But that right there is an inhuman message that goes against who I am as a human being. Look at the worst suffering in this world and tell me that we don't deserve a life that is perfect with no problems with perfect enjoyment.

In conclusion, I wish to know if my post sort of changed your views as an atheist (not in terms of being someone who is more religious), but in other ways? If so or if not, could you explain why?

Edit: I realize that nothing has value, worth, or meaning. But I am someone who places great worth and value on human personality (who we are as human beings). And based on that worth and value, I then conclude that we are superior to this inferior message of life and that we do deserve a life of perfection and immortality. I am not some logical machine who will just look at someone who is, for example, loving and inspired, and say to them "Your personality is insignificant and is nothing more than the activity of atoms that is prone to a life of no meaning to suit your valued personality and is something that is just prone to death and no afterlife or God." Again, I am not saying that atheists who view life as having no value, worth, or meaning are in any sense logical machines.

Now we do have a sense of worth towards ourselves and others hence the reason why we care and help others and such in the first place. And that itself is worth something. So perceiving someone as being worthy is definitely worth something in this case. Therefore, to take this perception to the absolute extreme in saying that this person is worthy of a perfect life and immortality is the best sense of worth you can have. To say that we are not worthy of a perfect life and immortality is only demeaning our self-worth.

To me, just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is, in fact, having a lesser sense of human value and worth no matter how much value and worth you have otherwise. Because if you had the best possible sense of value and worth possible, you would obviously view yourself and others as being worthy of these things. I believe what I just said to be logical and true. If you feel otherwise, then please explain why.

Final Edit: Now let me just say this in conclusion which is that for anyone who has a normal pleasurable life, it might seem to that person that a perfect life of pleasure and immortality might devalue any worth that life and pleasure have. But for someone who has one of the worst lives with severe chronic depression, then having the perfect life of pleasure with immortality would likely mean everything to this person and there would be nothing wrong with it. This would be my case as I have chronic depression.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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09-06-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(08-06-2014 08:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-06-2014 08:08 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  If you're looking for something focused on ridding yourself of negatives, then may I suggest Buddhism?

Jesus was a Bodhisattva spreading The Word.

He said Buddhism Thumbsup, not woowoo Mahayanaism Hobo.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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09-06-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(08-06-2014 01:00 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(08-06-2014 12:53 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  If someone was to set you on fire and you proceed to pretended that you were not on fire, and continued to act as if you were not on fire, believed that you were not on fire would you or would you not burn?[/b]
In that case, it would be good to recognize the reality of the situation. But in situations where not recognizing the reality of situation does no harm to you or anyone else and brings you personal pleasure, then recognizing the reality of the situation is pointless. In other words, since believing in God and such would do me no harm and wouldn't make me harm others and would bring me personal pleasure in life, it would be pointless for me to be an atheist that I am now.



Yes, Yes, I get what you're saying: "If I harm no one then I should be allowed to believe as I want to."
Right? Did I get that right?

(proceeding as though I DID get it right...)

So........




Why are you here?
Why argue and debate with atheists on your theories or ideals? You speak of giving yourself pleasure. How exactly does being here (in this forum) achieve that for you? Do you just enjoy getting berated or having people think you're a lunatic? That pleases you? You type and type and type the same thing over and over - not absorbing anything shared here or attempting to appreciate what others have said.
Ok. Got it. Then why be here? Why keep repeating yourself? Why come to a place where no one knows you just to spout how superior you are? Does that REALLY make you more superior?
I don't think so.

Just because you say it or Think it - doesn't make it true OR real.

So......... why ARE you here?

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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