The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
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03-06-2014, 01:13 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 11:42 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  To me, just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is ...


How do we determine what "worthy" means?
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03-06-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 06:03 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  To me, just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is, in fact, having a lesser sense of human value and worth no matter how much value and worth you have otherwise. Because if you had the best possible sense of value and worth possible, you would obviously view yourself and others as being worthy of these things. I believe what I just said to be logical and true. If you feel otherwise, then please explain why.

Because time, like money or anything else, has diminishing marginal utility. And believing that you have unlimited time diminishes the value of the present. Your belief in immortality is what devalues life.
People might be more motivated to get things done knowing that this is the only life they have, but you can get an infinite amount of things done if you lived forever. And whether or not you decide to be lazy and not get things done knowing that you are living a life of immortality is only a matter of personal choice. Living an immortal life does not have to take any of your motivation at all in getting things done or even in doing things for that matter.

Also, it is irrational and false to say that your life now has less value if you're immortal because it is now a life filled with eternal joy (eternal value).

(03-06-2014 01:13 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 11:42 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  To me, just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is ...


How do we determine what "worthy" means?
The same way that we determine feelings of worth and value towards others in helping others and such is worthy.
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03-06-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:15 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Because time, like money or anything else, has diminishing marginal utility. And believing that you have unlimited time diminishes the value of the present. Your belief in immortality is what devalues life.
Also, it is irrational and false to say that your life now has less value if you're immortal because it is now a life filled with eternal joy (eternal value).

Sounds boring as all fuck. Can I opt out?

#sigh
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03-06-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:15 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Also, it is irrational and false to say that your life now has less value if you're immortal because it is now a life filled with eternal joy (eternal value).

Sounds boring as all fuck. Can I opt out?

Immortality on a dying planet that would quickly run out of resources as an undying populations continued to reproduce. Yeah sounds fucking horrible.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-06-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:15 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Also, it is irrational and false to say that your life now has less value if you're immortal because it is now a life filled with eternal joy (eternal value).

Sounds boring as all fuck. Can I opt out?
It may be true that the human brain does get bored after a certain degree of positive stimuli, but it would be demeaning of yourself to decide that you are not worthy of it or to end your life. Actually, it may be boring at first, but wouldn't the brain adapt anyway to this lifestyle and no longer perceive it as boring?

(03-06-2014 01:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Sounds boring as all fuck. Can I opt out?

Immortality on a dying planet that would quickly run out of resources as an undying populations continued to reproduce. Yeah sounds fucking horrible.
If we had immortality but no perfection, then I would agree with this statement. But if you had both immortality and a perfect life (no problems), then the problem you just stated would not exist.
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03-06-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
I really hate being cynical, sorry, but I can't help it, but this sounds like a ploy to try to convince atheists that immortality would be a wonderful thing that they should desire. And once they do that then they may be more susceptible to belief systems which promise such a thing.

"Yeah let's all demand immortality. Oh the physical world won't allow it. Damn and I was so wanting it to be a possibility. Hold on, there's this thing called Christianity."

OK sorry, cynical hat off now.
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03-06-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
Everybody wants to live "longer". I think nobody really wants immortality. I suppose the best scenario would be to have your own personal kill switch. Given the option of immortality and a regular life, a regular life is definitely preferable.
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03-06-2014, 01:35 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:19 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Sounds boring as all fuck. Can I opt out?
It may be true that the human brain does get bored after a certain degree of positive stimuli, but it would be demeaning of yourself to decide that you are not worthy of it or to end your life. Actually, it may be boring at first, but wouldn't the brain adapt anyway to this lifestyle and no longer perceive it as boring?

(03-06-2014 01:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Immortality on a dying planet that would quickly run out of resources as an undying populations continued to reproduce. Yeah sounds fucking horrible.
If we had immortality but no perfection, then I would agree with this statement. But if you had both immortality and a perfect life (no problems), then the problem you just stated would not exist.

Except they would because all planets are dying, entropy is a law of the universe. The sun will explode and become a reds dwarf in a few billion years. When it expands it will envelope the earth and destroy it. There is no fix for this it will happen.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-06-2014, 01:50 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:35 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:19 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  It may be true that the human brain does get bored after a certain degree of positive stimuli, but it would be demeaning of yourself to decide that you are not worthy of it or to end your life. Actually, it may be boring at first, but wouldn't the brain adapt anyway to this lifestyle and no longer perceive it as boring?

If we had immortality but no perfection, then I would agree with this statement. But if you had both immortality and a perfect life (no problems), then the problem you just stated would not exist.

Except they would because all planets are dying, entropy is a law of the universe. The sun will explode and become a reds dwarf in a few billion years. When it expands it will envelope the earth and destroy it. There is no fix for this it will happen.
In that case, the attitude of "making the best of this life" would still apply (but this time on a much larger scale). Instead of it applying to a life of limited pleasure and a life of only 80 years or so, it will instead apply to a life that is "scaled up" (better) with a life of full pleasure, but this time with a limited lifespan of thousands and thousands of years.
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03-06-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 09:26 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Since atheism is about being logical, I am just trying to have a logical reasoning discussion. I believe that my statement is logical in saying that we should value who we are as people and that we should have an elevated sense of value and worth towards our and everyone else's personality regardless of the fact that this life itself says otherwise (again, life saying that we are just insignificant creatures who are not worthy of a perfect life and immortality). If anyone can give me a logical reason that opposes this, I would be interested to hear it and attempt to logically reason with it.

You are not being logical. I've noticed the following fallacies in just some of your posts: straw man, argument from ignorance, special pleading.

If anything, you are using common sense. The only problem is, that common says does not always comport with logic or reality. I've noticed that many theists seem to believe that common sense and logic are the same thing.

But onto your bigger point.

Human beings place value and worth on others personality because we are social animals. We evolved traits such as altruism, cooperation, kin selection, reciprocity, as survival mechanism. We place worth and value on each others lives because we evolved to.

Earth and the universe in general does not care about our lives. If an asteroid collided with earth and ended all life, do you think the universe would care?
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